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Power Forward or Small Forward?
Posted by: Adam on May 21st, 2011
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.There has been much debate about Derrick Williams on this site and what position he will play in the NBA. If he plays as a small forward, then we could desperately use him on our team. If he plays at the power forward than we need to pass because we have several of those already. Much of the debate was centered around his height. Most debated that he was going to play small forward because he was too small for power forward. Many said that he was only 6′7″. Others claimed he was 6′8″. Well, in the combine he has officially measured in as 6′8.75″. In my book that’s 6′9″. His weight was 248 pounds, which was fifth highest. I won’t bore you with all the numbers if you haven’t checked, but his wing span, standing reach, body fat, hand length, and hand width were all towards the top as well when compared with the 53 others there.
So with that all said, if you were one who was convinced that we should draft him due to him being a pure small forward, does this change things at all for you? He certainly looks like a power forward to me.
Replies: 91
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91 Responses
For one thing his body fat was on the wrong end of bding on top. Knight had the best in all the group. Williams came out with a statement saying “I am a small forward not a power forward..” Can play PF if needed though. That coming from the horses mouth he still should be at the top of the list..
Sorry being not bding. Dang Aurther.
I am almost positive he play’s majority of his mins in the sf department. could switch to pf in certain matchups though..
He’s easily the most dominant player in the draft. He is close to the same size as Lebron and while there is no comparison, someone that big and athletic can clearly play small forward.
The jazz need someone with that killer attitude that D Will 2 has. He will lose weight and body fat when he starts working out at the NBA level. if he’s available at 3 and we don’t take him, it would be ridiculously stupid
I think he is more of a PF. I worry about his game 15 ft. and out. That being said I would not think twice about taking him at 3. Too much upside to pass on him. He could pan out to be a Rudy gay or Josh Smith type player.
@jaron, “He will lose weight and body fat when he starts working out at the NBA level”, and why it’s not already the case, the guy want to be a star or what ?! he pretend to be a number one pick of the draft and he come to see future employers totally out of shape…….. does he know what is Work Ethic…… bad note for him
French Dude… did you watch the combine? Derrick Williams killed it, he ran the drills very fast and fluid. I was really impressed.
He’s not out of shape, he’s very strong, he’ll lose the extra weight in training camp… any one would.
@JRN: Williams HIMSELF said he is a small forward.
@Adam: it’s an interesting question. I think Williams is quick enough to play the 3. More importantly, he seems to have that chip on his shoulder so that he’s gonna work on his perimeter shot and his weight (if it’s an issue) in order to be quick enough to defend at the 3. Most of all, as has been said by many, he seems to be the surest bet in the draft (as close as this draft has to a sure thing, anyway), so if the Jazz had the chance to take him, I don’t think you can pass.
You guys. He wants to be a SF. He is a SF. He can play the PF, but he is a SF.. You question his shot. Tell me who else almost has a 60 Percent 3 point shot. Did he take a lot of shots no, he was playing PF. But when you put him on the perimeter that will change.. The other things, was you guys talk about his size. His size is NBA ready size. Not need to increase size like many of the Europeans. If he is available you pick him, thats just the way it is.
Not so clear after him.. If him and Irving is gone, you have to decide if Kanter is healthy enough, and if Harris can carry the load for a bit.. If Kanter is Healthy, its hard to pass on him.. If you draft him, you need to figure out what your going to do with Millsap. Sorry, just the way it is.. Want to keep Millsap, draft Knight. Knight is cool too. If you draft Knight, say goodbye to Fredette. LOL
Its wieird how this draft affects how we draft later. Glad I dont have to make the decisions…
LeBron James is about the same as Williams, Joe Johnson is about the same (an inch shorter), Michael Beasley is two inches taller (although lighter), and Carmelo Anthony is about the same too. I think he should play SF. If he can shoot and get to the rim like he did in college and can improve his quickness and technique, He should do great at the SF. I think it is a debate between Williams and Kanter for our #3 pick. At the #12 pick, we could debate all day!
I love those comparisons other Adam. Derrick Williams is 6′9 and 250. LeBron James is 6′8 and 250. Joe Johnson is 6′7 and 240. Michael Beasly is 6′10 and 230. Carmelo Anthony is 6′8 and 230. Wow. You just gave me a bunch of people that are shorter and thinner. LeBron James is the only one that is really close. But please. Lets not compare LeBron James to Derrick Williams. LeBron can play any position, even point guard if he needs to.
Yes, a big person can play small forward if needed. Even if no one gave me a good comparison, I know there is a few out there. The problem is the big people that play small forward play it because that’s their style of play. They are good outside shooters and are more comfortable playing offense and defense out on the wing rather than down low. Derrick Williams is a big guy the size of a power forward that plays down low. There’s a huge difference. He’s not a wing, even if he is working on becoming one. He plays best when scoring from the paint to maybe 10 or 15 feet out while getting lots of rebounds. He’s not a 3 point shooter. Sure you look at his stats and he is 50% last year, but he only takes one or two a game. If you put him out permanently on the wing and tell him to shoot more 3 pointers, specifically NBA 3 pointers that are a lower percentage shot than the college 3 pointer, that percentage will go down significantly. Down to the 20 or 30 percent range at best. Its not his game. We need shooters at the small forward and shooting guard position. He’s a low post slasher type of player. Not gonna help us all that much. Especially when we’re trying to convert Paul Millsap to the small forward. I’ve said this a hundred times. Paul Millsap and Derrick Williams are similar players. We draft Derrick Williams and that is the end of the Paul Millsap era in Utah. You can’t keep both. Especially with Derrick Favors in the mix as well.
Derrick Williams has said point blank, when asked, that he is a small forward. I will take his word for it.
So you are going to trust him by his word and not by his play? If he said he was a point guard would you draft him and start him in front of Devin Harris?
Sure he can play small forward. I said that already. But he’s a inside slasher type of small forward and the Jazz need shooters. He’s not a shooter and he’s not a true wing player.
All I know, is if Williams is available at three, I draft him, and figure out all the rest later. He’s going to be a very good player in this league, regardless of which forward position he plays.
Amen Jason. Adam who do you proport to pick at 3 if Derrick Williams is available and you don’t want him? That means kyrie and Kanter are gone you will take knight? Knight is as much or more of a tweener than d will 2. With much less capability of dominating a game. Just because they are both 6′8″ does not mean Millsap and D Will are the same player. D will can jump out of the building, Millsap cannot. D Will is electrifying, Millsap tends to be more of a meat and potatoes player like Duncan. We deeply missed Mathews wow factor at the sg last year. D Will 2 can bring it back at the 3 position and then some with much more imposing size.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US#/watch?v=ze3NXkUmLKA yeah watching this all i could think was “wow he looks just like Millsap…” Yeah and derrick rose plays a lot like mark Jackson…
Why are the Jazz paying KOC, Coaches, and scouts money when they can just listen to some of you guys??Maybe you need to go back to your fantacy league..
We have pick#3. We’ll get a good guy. And I trust KOC and company to do a good job.
@KC: Agree completly. Wolves selection will be the key.
Adam, I am happy its not up to you. Really, I am happy its not up to you. Lets see, if coach puts Millsap, 6′8″ into the game as a Center, does that make him a true Center. No, it means that Coach believes him to be the best man available for the job at present time.
So, you say that if Williams, a 50% or better 3pt shooter takes more shots, that his percentage will come down, I dont dissagree. I do say that he still shoots at a percentage that you will accept from you SF position, not the crappy 20% that you would have us believe. He doesnt shoot out there much, becuase he is used as a PF. How many PF’s do you see shooting from 3 point range? Probably more centers shooting from 3 point range than PF’s.. So dont believe that since he has played out of position because his coach wanted him too, that he cannot excel at another position. Especially down sizing from PF to SF..
He is not being asked to be a PG, or SG, he is talked about playing a position that is pretty close to his size. Most people say he is like Millsap, the difference is that he is supposedly faster, with more athleticism. Hmmm, funny that Sap played the 3 pretty well in some games being slower and supposedly with less athleticsm and 3 pt ablility. Sap was never known for that, until last season..
If sap can improve his game, you would expect that a player with Williams skills can show a game at the SF as well. The main difference between the SF position is 2 inches and maybe 20 lbs. Wow, no one can play outside of those supposed specific skills. Oh, thats right Millsap didnt start as a PF supposedly 2″s undersized last yr. We are only asking Williams to play a little oversized (weight wise) at the SF postions. Sheesh.
If he was anyone else it would be said to be an advantage playing large for the position. Its not like he is some slow obese slime ball with no work ethics. Ostertag.
One last thing Adam, you said “you going to trust him at his word, not at his play”, ok, fill us in on what you seen that every other sports guy has not seen.. Let us know why Williams will not make it as a SF in the NBA.. Let us know, who is a better pick at the 3rd pick in the draft. Since if Williams slides to us, its because Kanter and Irving is gone. Let us know who is next best, Knight? I like knight, but he is no Williams for sure.. would personally be perfectly happy leaving this draft with Knight and Williams, but that isnt currently a possiblitly is it. Your a Fredette at 3 kind of guy arent you. Fredette and Biyombo, good luck with that one..
LK are you suggesting we don’t discuss our opinions on this opinion blog site? I will now invite you to stop sharing yours as well to avoid your looking like an enormous hypocrite. Your opinions are all over this site. And no one has ever asked you to be silent. Until now. This is a fun site where we can share our opinion of what WE think the jazz should do. Doesn’t mean we think we know everything, by the way I finished 1st in my fantasy league with D Will 1 as my PG.
This is how I see Derrick Williams. Yes he is a tweener, and can probably play PF. And when I look at Paul Milsap’s game right now and Derrick Williams game. You can see that they are pretty similar. The difference is that Milsap is not nearly as athletic as Williams. And that Milsap has spent his entire career working on those skills, and as far as I am concerned I really get see him getting any better at those skills in the future other than using them more intelligently. Williams though has the game that Milsap has right now, but he is faster, more athletic and has a much higher ceiling.
And from the way I see it I would love to have that kind of guy playing SF for us will he be a lights out shooter probably not, but I do think that he would be a pretty effective scorer who can play on the perimeter. Nothing gave me nightmares more than watching Kobe pay no attention to Ronnie Brewer in the playoffs. I hated that. Derrick Williams will have to be defended, he won’t be left on the perimeter either.
Patrick, have I ever told you that I absolutely love it when you comment on my blog posts? You get so hilariously animated when someone has a different opinion. Keep it up
Honestly, I’m glad its not up to me. And I’m glad its not up to you either, or anyone else on this site. I’m glad its up to the guys who know a heck of a lot more than both of us. Yes he can play the SF and yes he will do good at it. Nowhere did I say he would fail. I’m saying that he’s not the type of small forward that we need. He’s an inside slasher. A more athletic version of Paul Millsap. I think he’ll do good in this league. But we need shooting. Badly. and D-Will 2 isn’t a shooter. He’s not a wing player. He doesn’t quite fit into what we desperately need. Jazz nation right now is of the opinion that D-Will 2 is gonna be the next LeBron James or the next Kevin Durant by how they speak, but I don’t see that. We can go the best player available route but in the long run it won’t do us much good. The player that does fit into exactly what we need is Harrison Barnes and it sucks to be us because if he decided to declare, he’d be be available at the number 3 spot.
So who do I pick at number 3 if D-Will 2 is on the board? I go against the grain and pick Brandon Knight. Is Brandon Knight a tweener? Maybe. Be we could use a PG and a SG, so I’m not complaining there. I think Brandon Knight will make a great point guard in this league. He’s fast, he pushes the ball well, he’s a great passer, and he can shoot the ball. So I have no qualms with taking Brandon Knight over Derrick Williams. Then I would say to go use that 12th pick in the draft to pick a true wing player or shooting guard that can help us out by shooting the ball. A guy like Klay Thompson, Chris Singleton, Tyler Hunneycutt, or Jordan Hamilton.
And hey, look! I’m not the only person on the planet that think the Jazz should pass on Williams if he’s available: http://www.hoopsworld.com/the_draft/FullMockDraft.asp
Holy wet dream for the cavs. Enormous fail for us. That mock has us taking jimmer and kemba.. that blows my mind. We pass up arguably the best player in the draft for 2 point guards who are shoot first? Did you also think the world was ending yesterday?
By the way he can shoot just fine outside and we can still pick up any number of sharpshooters at 12, jimmer, Hamilton, Thompson, one of them will be there. We don’t need a sharpshooter at 3 and 12. Having said that D Will shoots the 3 with great form I don’t know what more you want.
Well, I wouldn’t pick two point guards like that draft said, but the point is that its someone else thinking we should pass on Williams.
And quite honestly, y’all need to look at the big picture and not see the Jazz as the center of the NBA universe. If you think that there is no way the Jazz should pass up on Williams, despite him not being quite the type of player we’re looking at, then you should also notice that with that logic he ain’t gonna be there in the first place because if he is a must have player regardless of team needs, then the T-Wolves ain’t gonna pass him up. If you think its alright for the T-Wolves to pass up him in favor of Kanter due to Kanter filling a bigger need, then you will also realize that Brandon Knight fills a bigger need for us and its alright for us to pass on a higher ranked player in favor of a bigger team need. A third thing to keep in mind is that its actually a lot smarter for the Cavs if they pick Williams because if they do so, they are guaranteed one of the top notch point guards in the draft at number four. If they decide to go with the point guard at number one, they are not guaranteed that a top notch small forward will be there at number four because there is only one of those and so they thus have to settle with one of the riskier centers at four.
So you gotta be realistic and realize that if Williams is as good as you make him out to be, he’s not gonna be there at number 3. And if he is there at number 3, then it’s alright to pass on him for a player that fills a bigger need. Not the end of the world
Doubtful the Twolves take him unless they have a trade in mind. Micheal Beasely and Wesley Johnson both play the SF spot. Love is a power forward. Kanter could fill in nicely next to them since he is not a traditional center.
They could fit him into the lineup easily if they play Wesley Johnson down at SG which they actually did a lot last season. A rotation of Michael Beasley, Kevin Love, and Derrick Williams at the 3-4 spots with Wesley Johnson hanging down at the 2 and coming up to the 3 when he’s needed is actually a very hardcore setup so its extremely probable that they take him if he’s available
I am aware. He played the two, but he always played better at the 3. He is a tweener but he is a SF. The Twolves would be better at taking Kanter. A position they are weak at. Please tell me why, they would pass up on a position of need to bring another guy that would take time away from the already talented players they have. Especially when the best center they do have is Darko Millic. Not to mention they have Martell Webster, Anthony Tolliver, and Lazar Haywood that all play SF as well. I mean I know the Twolves have made some pretty dumb decisions over the years. But it should be obvious that Kanter is the pick when considering the holes they have on the roster.
I doubt he is available at 3 as well Adam, but if he is and the Jazz take Brandon Knight over a game changer like Williams, they better know something I don’t. watch the duke game in which Williams DESTROYED. He spent a lot of time playing on the perimeter nailing 3’s and slashing. Watch this and tell me he doesn’t have the quickness to play SF. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu5UsD4-EXY&feature=youtube_gdata_player Who does that on the Jazz? No one, he fits a huge need we are worse off on the perimeter than Pg/Sg if Gordon stays at SG where he has done much better and prefers to play
I take that back Gordon does that too, but you are adding a bigger meaner guy to put alongside Hayward and their styles will compliment each other.
Ugh, really need a edit button so I don’t keep noticing things I want to comment on. We are gonna do the old switcharoo with your OWN advice for Minnesota Adam, considering the possibility they don’t take D-Will 2
They could fit him into the lineup easily if they play Gordon Hayward down at SG which they actually did a lot last season. A rotation of Paul Millsap, Derrick Favors, and Derrick Williams at the 3-4 spots with Gordon Hayward hanging down at the 2 and coming up to the 3 when he’s needed is actually a very hardcore setup so its extremely probable that they take him if he’s available
Ok, so he can dunk, but can you show something else Jaron ?? every video i watch of him is like a dunk contest….. if you want to convince me, show me he’s not another Stromile Swift…… i need to see jump shoot, dribble, movement without the ball, 3 pts, defense….. everything a SF have to do
Watch the first video French dude, he is swatting shots out of bounds coming for weakside help, intercepting passes and breaking away for huge dunks (defense and open court ball handling), and nailing 3s (jump shooting), rebounding and putback dunks(rebounding,) setting screens and rolling towards the basket (movement without the ball) and in the last video he blows by his man on the perimeter and jams it over another tall defender (handle, dribbling) highlight reels aren’t going to show his on the ball defense very much or a lot of moving without the ball. He does dunk a lot and that is not a bad thing at all, but he gets his dunks with leaping and athleticism and movement without the ball, thus all the alley oops
Adam, Thanks for the compliment. I actually like seeing your name next to a post to see what ya have to say. Actually, I never was half cocked, and I really dont want to be making decision either. I agree with a lot of what you said, but I am also looking at things a little differently. Neither is right or wrong, both just have different perspectives.
your link seem to be dead jaron…. but i’ve just watch 15 minutes of video of him, and i’m perplex, the guy is good, atletics, there is no doubt on that, but in 15 minutes of various highlights, i never saw him taking any classic 15 feet jump shot, or any other jump shoot except for some 3 pts, he go always for penetration….. NBA is not College, you can’t penetrate every time you have the ball, or the defense is gonna crush you…… i will not be angry if we end with him, or knight, but i still want Kanter first
I just got blown away by K. Leonard’s measurables.
At 6′6″, Kawhi has a wingspan of 7′3″ and his hands are almost a foot wide. By comparison Derrick Favors and AK have a 7′4″ wing so in effect Leonard has a center’s arms on a guard’s body. Shaq’s is 7′7″. This, combined with his rebounding and amazing athleticism would definitely make him a great heir apparent to my boy AK.
I watched a couple interview videos and the words “hard work” seem to be part of almost every answer. Kawhi comes across as very grounded and mature.
I know all you guys are talking about Williams but IMO Kawhi is a better fit and his strengths exactly match what Utah needs. I think he would pair great with Gordon out on the wing.
Could Leonard be a possibility at 3?
The ESPN big board has him in the top 5 players in the draft.
Now Kawhi Leonard is someone that I have experience with. I watched him a lot at SDSU this past season, especially due to that being BYU’s biggest rival team this season. Because of his long wingspan and huge hands, he was always their killer rebounder and low post scorer. Someone I thought would make a great power forward. However, unlike Williams, power forward in the NBA really wouldn’t fit him much at all. In college, he could get away with it, but not in the NBA. He’s short and skinny and may get beaten around a bit if you kept him in the low post all game. So small forward is the right position that he’ll play, be he’s not really a true wing, either. He wasn’t much of a 3 point shooter, although he would step out and nail a few on occasion, which would drive me batty as a BYU fan. A black AK would be a good description. But shorter and with less versatility than AK. If he’s still there at 12, I’d say go for it, but I think 3 is too high
Back to Williams real quick, touché on using my argument against me as far as a Williams, Millsap, and Favors triangle with Hayward hanging down at the SG for most of the time, but there’s a few flaws with that. The first is re-opening an old can of worms with Al Jefferson. While I know he can play Center, I’m still convinced that he’s not a true center and works better in the Jefferson, Favors, and Millsap triangle that the Jazz had going on last season at the 4-5 spots. You bring in Williams as a 3-4 tweener and you are creating two triangle rotations. One at the 3-4 spot with Williams, Favors, and Millsap and the other at the 4-5 spot with Jefferson, Favors, and Millsap. If you try to implement that you cause a log jam and someone is going to get left behind or Jefferson is going to be told he has to stay permanently at center and not come down to power forward at all. Then you are basically squashing any chance AK has at coming back and telling CJ to stay down at SG. That’s gonna cause way too much confusion and everything will implode. Or you are forced to trade someone that got lost in the extreme rotation. What we need is a true wing that can stay put at the SF position and form a different triangle rotation with AK/Miles (whoever we bring back or keep) and Hayward at the 2-3 spots. Williams is a good player, but doesn’t quite fit that mold. Yes, he’s a slasher which gives him speed when he’s cutting through everyone, but he’s not a true wing player and not a shooter. He will succeed at the SF spot with some team in the NBA that could use a SF/PF tweener, but that’s not what we need.
I’m sorry I think in this weak draft you take the player that may not be a perfect fit but can still fit. Look at Detroit passing on Carmelo Anthony the year they took Darko. They drafted based on need instead of talent and Darko was one of the biggest busts in history.
The pistons went on to win a championship anyway, and who is to say if they had Carmelo if he would have helped or hurt them since it was teamwork that won them the ring. But Darko certainly didn’t help them. I would hate to see D Will become an elite player while the guy we reached for instead of D Will sits on the end of the bench. And D Will still fills a need even if he will need to alter his game. What if the Cavs had passed on Lebron and took Darko because Lebron didn’t have a great jump shot? (no I am not saying Williams is the next Lebron) Detroit would have owned everyone and would still be owning. You don’t reach for a lesser talent just because he isn’t a perfect fit.
Look up how history has treated your theory under “Sam Bowie” on Wikipedia, labeled the worst draft pick in north American sports history by Sports Illustrated, stating “teams need to draft based on talent, not need”
And you’re telling me that every team in history that drafted based on need instead of best available ended up failing? I could name off several situations where a team took the best player available instead of what they needed and that ended up in disaster.
I’m listening. Name them
And I never said every team, but the biggest busts in history have came that way. Sam Bowie over MJ, and Darko over D Wade and Carmelo
How did JaMarcus Russell work out for the Raiders when they could’ve taken the less popular choice at the time in Adrian Peterson? The whole world that the Texans were crazy when they picked Mario Williams instead of Reggie Bush. That turned out well.
In the NBA, the Pacers picking Reggie Miller over Steve Alford wasn’t so popular at the time. No one seemed to like it when the Jazz reached for John Stockton based on a team need.
Do you want me to go on?
With our situation I don’t think we have a bad team. If you brought last years roster together post Dwill trade and gave them a full training camp with Corbin and season together, I would be shocked if the team did as poorly again. We are not a bad team, our real lottery pick is number 12. Which goes to show we are not as bad. In our situation I see no reason why we don’t go for the most talented guy on the board.
JaMarcus Russell, was the hands down favorite to go first overall. There were very few NFL experts, and I use that term loosely that disagreed with that pick. Plus you can’t use Oakland as an example its a terrible team for rookies, every NFL fan knows that.
You are telling me you thought jamarcus Russell was more talented than Adrian Peterson back then? If you thought that this discussion is over. I also thought Reggie Bush would be a bust. In any case the NFL is a polar opposite to basketball in terms of drafting. There are many more things that factor into completing a 53 man roster as opposed to 12. None of your basketball examples came in the lottery talent is much more difficult to gauge after the first few picks, so yeah, name me some lottery examples now that are anywhere close to the impact of the examples I gave for my argument.
Matt Leinart was the best player available for the Cardinals a few years back. Oops. Adam Morrison was the best player available for the Bobcats. That was a smart choice. I’m having fun with this, actually. I’m reminding myself of many “best player available”s that failed both in the NBA and NFL. Picking the best player available isn’t always a good strategy in the draft and reaching for a player based on a need works out a lot.
No I definitely do not, like you said compiling a 53 man roster is very different from 12-15. Everything is constructed very differently that being said. As a college prospect Jamarcus Russell was considered uber talented, and had an insanely high ceiling. Where as Peterson was a known talent that had an up front standing tall running style that gave concern for teams, because it warranted fumbling, and injuries. Also that was about the same time period that runningbacks by committee was the way to go. A runningback like him would have been considered a waste as the first overall choice, plus the Raiders had Micheal Bush on the roster at the time.
Adrian Peterson had injury issues back when he was drafted. And JaMarcus Russell was one of the most talented quarterbacks to ever come out of college. That was an easy choice for the Raiders at the time. So yeah. That is a good comparison. And no, NFL drafting strategies are certainly not polar opposite to NBA drafting strategies. In fact, they’re quite similar and historically things that happen in both are awfully similar
Adam, QB’s have a 67% success rate in the NFL when drafted in rounds one and two. The whole process of drafting a QB is infinitely more complicated then selecting any position for a basketball team, and is not something you can relate to this. Cardinals needed a QB so they took the best one there. We need a SF more than we need PG right now. Derrick Williams would fit a need and be the most talented player if we could get him at 3
And drafting an NBA point guard or small forward is simple? There’s a whole lot of complexity involved in taking the right basketball player.
Its really not similar drafting at all. The QB is essentially the most important position on the football team. If he sucks the rest of the team sucks. You can have one superstar on a basketball team that raises the whole level of play for a team. This is not comparable. If that was the case why have the Texans not won a superbowl with Andre Johnson and Mario Williams easily in the top 3 players in their respective positions?
Oh my gosh Adam you are impossible. Putting together a good football team is incredibly different. You can’t just draft a great QB and be set, whereas you draft a great player in the NBA and you are automatically 10 wins better almost every time. You still have to put talent around that player but it is much easier to rebuild in the NBA than in the NFL. Adam Morrison was drafted in a very weak draft, the only half decent players who came out of that draft are Roy and Gay and they haven’t won anything so you can’t make that comparison. It pales in comparison to taking Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan or Darko Milicic over Dwayne Wade, there is no comparison at all.
I meant the only decent players drafted after Morrison
No. A football team with a solid offensive line, great running backs, and great receivers can succeed with an average or below average quarterback. If a football team has a superb defense and a not so great offense in general they can also succeed, so you are completely off in your argument. The Ravens have done both of those in different eras. They won a flippin’ Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer and have recently (before Joe Flacco) one the division and made the playoffs with a cruddy offense and the league’s top defense.
And a basketball team can fail if they have one all-star/superstar and a sub-par supporting cast. Just ask Paul Pierce before the Celtics brought in Garnett and Allen.
And I’m the difficult one, huh? Who’s the one that’s stuck on the idea that drafting by need is never as good as drafting by best available? And who’s the one that says the NFL draft and NBA draft are polar opposites?
Plus, Derrick Williams isn’t going to be the next Michael Jordan so I don’t know why keep bringing up the Bowie over Jordan argument. The 2006 draft is actually a great comparison because the 2011 draft is equally as weak. Adam Morrison was going crazy at Gonzaga with over 20 PPG. The Bobcats would’ve gotten some strange looks if they took Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay over him, but people would’ve been ok with it. We take Knight over Williams and we may get some weird looks, but not too many complaints. Williams and Knight are both going to be good players in this league, but neither will become superstars.
And derrick Williams will be much better than Adam Morrison so I don’t know why keep using that comparison, it goes both ways man if you belittle my argument I can belittle yours right back.
Fact of the matter is Adam you don’t know that Wiliams is not going to be the next Jordan. Jordan was not going to be Jordan.
But Adam those teams don’t succeed when it comes down to it an NFL team is completely centered around the QB. And the teams that don’t have at least an above average one don’t win the superbowl. In fact the last team to ever win a superbowl with just an average one was the Baltimore Ravens.
Who had probably one of the best defenses of all times. Player value between the individual and the team is incredibly different in the NFL. Its not comparable.
The NBA and NFL are polar opposites. You need to have a talented QB its been more than 10 years since a team without it has made it to the Superbowl and won with a bad QB. Guys like Rex Grossman, Matt Hasselbeck and Jake Delhomme have all made it there but lost because they could not carry the team to the win. In fact the 2005 Seahawks has two pro bowl and soon to be hall of fame lineman. They also were considered to have the best offensive line in the game at the time. They had that years MVP and an excellent WR corps along with a solid D but could not win.
You really can’t compare the NFL and NBA especially in a drafting sense.
Ok, in the NBA draft you have players that everyone thinks are going to be good, but fall short of expectations. Most people call them busts. Then you have players that no one expects to be good, but turn out to be stars. They are called sleepers. You have times when someone takes the best player available and you have times when someone takes a player that fits a need. Sometimes a team takes the best player available and that player does nothing. Sometimes a team takes a player based on a need and that does nothing. Sometimes a team takes the best player available and that player is a star. Sometimes a team takes a player based on a need and that player is a star. In the NBA, teams have to scout players coming out of college, bring them in for workouts, do interviews, and whatnot to determine what players they need. Get the point?
Now tying it in. You see those basic drafting points and principles? THEY ALL APPLY TO THE NFL DRAFT AS WELL AND SO IN THAT SENSE I CAN COMPARE ALL I WANT AND HAVE IT BE LEGIT!!!!! That’s what I’m talking about. Please don’t act dumb anymore and say the system for the NFL draft and the NBA draft and the things that happen in both are complete opposite. This is getting to be an awfully silly argument.
Plus, the fact that guys like Rex Grossman and Jake Delhomme MADE the superbowl says a whole lot.
You’re statement earlier: “The QB is essentially the most important position on the football team. If he sucks the rest of the team sucks.”
I don’t know about you, but in my book making the super bowl means you are a good team. Teams that “suck” don’t make the super bowl. Teams that “suck” don’t make the playoffs.
And Matt Hasselbeck was a dang good quarterback on a dang good Seahawks team that dominated the NFC West AND the NFC in general, so I don’t know what you are smoking on that one
If your basing your entire argument on the fact that Williams is to big to play sf at the NBA level then its a pretty weak argument. He played sf every year for arizona and has the skill set of a shooting forward. I think he demostrated enough range during the tournament shooting almost 60% from behind the arc to show he can operate from the perimeter and saying he fits the timberwolves is simply shortsided. Whom or how would WIlliams fit on a team with Kevin Love taking the majority of the minutes at the 4, the position you claim he must play, or playing him at the 3 where Beasley already plays?
I know Williams has his doubters but in a overall weak draft hes the most NBA ready player, certainly more so than a Enes Kanter or Brandon Knight. I think people tend to put far too much stock into draft combines both the NFL and NBA as the do little to show the true value of a player. Ivring and Beasley both had a higher body fat percentage than typical but by in large I fail to see the severity of the issue, as some people claim. NBA players show up to training camp every year and are out of shape yet manage to perform each year.
I am very aware of how good the Seahawks were I am a Seattle native and have personally met the players on that team. Matt Hasselbeck was an okay QB, he was smart and underrated on the athletic end. As soon as he lost a reliable running game and his offensive line. You get the the last 5 years of Seahawks football.
Both the Panthers and Bears made the superbowl on defense. The Seahawks made it because the offense worked perfectly together. But when a defense of equal talent showed up Hasselbeck could not put them over the edge.
The difference between in drafting in the NFL and in the NBA is certain players and positions are considerably more valuable. Now in the NBA any position can be drafted in the top 5 Whereas in the NFL positions like TE,RB, C and others are almost never picked in the top 5 if at all. As some underlying principles are quite obvious when you compare drafting principles for the most point they do not relate, the Packers are not going to draft a new QB period, its not a discussion. They may try to get a new backup but the starter is a lock. Are the Heat going to get a new SF when they have glaring weaknesses at PG and C? No they won’t
Here is the reason why the Jazz will not pass on Derrick Williams though.
Tony Parker, Derek Fisher, Mike Conley, Russel Westbrook, Ty Lawson, Jason Kidd, Andre Miller, and Chris Paul. Those are the 8 starting PG’s of the teams that made the playoffs in the West. Now when you compare Devin Harris to them you can say that he is currently better than Fisher, Conley, Lawson, and Miller. I would say he is even with Kidd( only because he is declining) and you could make an argument for him being better than Parker.
Richard Jefferson, Rudy Gay, Kevin Durrant, Danio Gallinari, Ron Artest, Gerald Wallace, Trevor Ariza, and Caron Butler. Those are the names of the starting SF’s of the teams that made the playoffs in the west this year, minus Rudy Gay because he was injured.
Now I consider Hayward to be the starter at the 2. So that leaves, Evans, Miles, and AK as the guys to compare them to. Now which guy of ours is better than any of them. Gallinari is basically the only guy you can make an argument for and thats only if AK or Miles was playing a top notch game.
Case in point is that Williams would fit a need and be the best guy to pick if he is still there. So take your bias and forget about it from what we know he would be the best pick at 3.
Hey, look! I can now have some intelligent conversation! Thanks for making a comment Van!
Simply put, my argument is that he doesn’t fit the mold of the type of player that we need. He’s not a true wing player and that’s what we need. His 60% 3-point shooting is quite deceiving if you look at it closely. The Jazz need a shooter. One that plays on the wing and takes frequent shots from long range. Derrick Williams does neither. He plays inside and steps out to shoot a long range shot on occasion. Typically no more than once or twice a game. And that’s one or two attempts on average. If one thinks he’s gonna be a lights out three point shooter in the NBA that will break Kyle Korver’s record, you’re kidding yourself.
If Harrison Barnes were available, he’d be the guy we want at #3, but he’s not because he decided to stay in school. So we go with a point guard at #3 in Brandon Knight or Kemba Walker because Devin Harris isn’t our future and we need to take a guy to train up and at #12 we take our shooter in a guy like Klay Thompson. That would be the smartest course the Jazz could take in this draft. If we take Williams and Jimmer with our two picks, we’ll be right back here next year with two picks in the lottery wondering what happened. If we take Knight and Thompson, well, we still might be right here again, but we have some strong potential with the franchise to actually go somewhere.
And Spencer, you are officially grounded. No dates for 3 weeks
I am a little too young to be grounded, quite a bit older than that.
Of course we would rather have Harrison Barnes, but he is not here. Not to mention the PG’s in next years class already look a lot better. You really need to learn to step outside your point of view. You are not an expert on basketball neither am I. But you can’t say that Williams is only going to take 2 3’s game you don’t know that. In fact you really don’t know all that much about him. You more than likely did not watch every game and chances are you have only watched highlight videos. And maybe at best you saw one or two games with him it.
Not to mention I pointed out the same flaws with the Beasley, Love, and Johnson all playing in Minnesota. You really need to keep your arguments straight.
Last time I even try to talk to you Adam thanks for the disrespect
Good debates require respect, now that I know you are a disrespectful person I will stop wasting my time with you
Well now you are both grounded. It doesn’t matter how old you are. Getting me over 70 comments was kinda cool, though. So only 2 weeks.
So Adam are you the king of the trollers?? I am glad KOC is in charge, and no he does not read these posts.
If Williams drops to three I really hope the Jazz grab him. We have a top-3 pick. Would a top-3 pick make the most impact as:
A – Backup Center
B – Backup Point Guard
C – Starting SF
I’ll go with C, Alex. We could ditch AK completely, and maybe even CJ and start getting ourselves under the cap for once while retaining a great starting 5.
@ Adam
Yeah you do make a valid point that he had not shot a lot from distance before the tournament and I will concede that watching him he does prefer to play inside out. I think its crazy how little concensues there is in this years draft. I have seen mock drafts with Kemba Walker going 3rd to the Jazz to 21 with the portland trailblazers (aldridge at NBA.com if your curious)
I do think Williams definatley wants to play the 3 and has show he does have some of the skills, but can he is another question. I do think based on O’Connors best player available assesment that if Williams is there at 3 he will be taken by the Jazz over Knight, although that makes using the 12th pick a bigger question mark as the PG around 12 are very murky.
Wow is it just me Adam or does KOC refer to my “terrible Michael Jordan comparison” as his strategy at the 3 pick in his interview at the combine? Someone posted the link earlier, so I am glad you finally got your “intelligent conversation” with Van because apparently me and the GM for the jazz have NO clue what we are talking about. I hope that crow you are choking down is tougher than an old boot.
@LK- So because I disagree with you, that makes me a troll? You’re more of a troll than I am
@KC- Williams isn’t guaranteed to start if we draft him and Knight isn’t guaranteed to sit on the bench if we draft him. Plus, its more or less who the player will become in the future, not what they can do for us this next season. 10 years down the road I think we will look back and see that both players were good NBA players
@Van- Thanks for being one of the few decent conversationalists in this discussion. I like it when people are opened minded and are willing to see the opposing view and understand it. Even if they don’t agree. Yes, I too see the point that Derrick Williams could fit in with us real well, and if we take him, I hope I am wrong in my assessment of him.
@Jaron- I thought you said you weren’t ever going to try to talk with me anymore. That lasted a long time. Its back up to being grounded for 3 weeks for you
And you aren’t allowed to leave the table until you finish ALL your crow. I couldn’t pass up the chance to rub it in your face after you called me unintelligent in a round about way.
Adam you have essentially shot down every argument that disagreed with your post in general. Your conversational skills are hardly what I would call open minded. Several people laid out good arguments against yours and you just went out about how they were wrong. You clearly have no idea how to carry an open minded debate.
You two have really made my day, you know that? I love hilarious arguments like this. I’ve shot down every argument that disagreed with me? Sure. It’s called debate. But I also recognize the other point of view and see that its plausible and I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before. Many times. Have you looked at the other side of the coin and done the same? Have you considered the idea that Derrick Williams could be a bad fit for the Jazz and mentioned that that could happen but you just see things differently? No you haven’t. And I just looked back over all your comments to check that to see if I missed anything. You’re just focused on attempting to bash me senseless and disagree with everything I say. Which is why you are now grounded from having any dates for 4 weeks.
And I dare you two to make another comment. I’m loving this. Tell me how wrong I am. Tell me what a creep and a troll I am. Tell me that I know nothing about basketball. Its only going to make this all the more funny. Give me your best shot.
Now I know where the statement “you’re up in the night” came from.
Haha okay, you have too much time on your hands you took the time to reread an 83 comment discussion late in the evening to defend a pointless argument where none of our debates matter. (And for the record if Williams isn’t there my pick is Knight. I just think he is the better pick) But more importantly whats funny is that your “grounding” people from dates when you don’t get any at all.
Your welcome to your basketball opinion, however limited it may be just try to keep an open mind, many people laid out very well thought out arguments in comparison to yours and the only when that you were able to recognize was the one that used your own argument against you.
You sound really pissed right now to the point where you are taking things out of context, using personal attacks, and twisting my words. You need to take a breather.
“you have too much time on your hands you took the time to reread an 83 comment discussion”
No. I said I LOOKED over YOUR comments. It took like 2 minutes.
“But more importantly whats funny is that your “grounding” people from dates when you don’t get any at all.”
Wow. Where did that one come from? I was having a little fun with a silly argument. You don’t know my personal life. No attacking it. Ever.
“Your welcome to your basketball opinion, however limited it may be”
Personal attack again. Stop those.
“the only when that you were able to recognize was the one that used your own argument against you.”
I had zero problem with what Van, KC, French Dude, Patrick, James, Shockwave, LK, Kyle, JRN, Dave, other Adam, and Jason said. One person?
Just chill out. Please. Stop attacking. Stop twisting my words. I enjoy debating sports, but when people start acting angry and pissed off and say things like what you just said in that last comment it stops being fun and becomes annoying and dumb
Haha. And I just remembered that I told you to give me your best shot. You took that and threw out a bunch of insults that made very little sense. Really? Your best shot is to twist people’s words, take things out of context, attack people’s personal life that you know nothing about, and make fun of things that I never even said? Wow. You suck.
Something Adam said….
“Just chill out. Please. Stop attacking.”
Something Adam said 13 minutes later……
“Wow. You suck.”
Nice
haha! I was wondering if anyone was going to catch that. Don’t know what I was thinking there. One of those times I wish I could go and delete a comment I made…
I think the best path 4 the jazz is Hayward and Favors… As much as millsap does. They need a fresh opportunity 2 start over… They NEED a good, playmaking, defensive, strong free agent at SG