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corbin killing this team
Posted by: Aaron Avery on December 19th, 2012
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.Im just curious if there is anyone else out there that doesnt really get excited while watching a game until about 3 min left in the 1st and 3rd quarters when corbin subs in our best/future of the team players. i like watching the jazz but i cant take watching our first unit anymore. Watching jefferson isolate all first quarter is unwatchable anymore. watching foye get isolated on every decent scorer in the league and get abused is unwatchable. seeing a talented player like marvin get no plays ran for him and being relegated to a spot up shooter is unwatchable (i believe he is capable of posting up most players that are guarding him). by far the most unwatchble thing to me though, is watching us start every game with no energy or fire while favors,kanter,hayward and carrol sit and watch. I would love watching a lineup of mo,hayward,marvin,milsap,favors start a game. i know that linep might have tough scoring stretchs but the energy and defense would make up for that. then u could use al and foye for exactly what they are, scorers and nothing else off the bench and couple them with carrol and kanter to cover their weeknesses. throw burks on that second unit as well. bottom line is that im dying to see our youngsters play more. im not for sure that we will be better right away but atleast it will be funner to watch and i know it will make us better in the long run
Replies: 53
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53 Responses
You took the words out of several mouths..
Agree 100%! If this was done NOW (since it wasn’t to start the season…), I believe the Jazz would be a better team by the end of THIS season.
Really, how much more are Favors & Gordon going to learn without facing top-shelf competition?
What’s wrong with some in-game coaching from the position coach for Kanter? Maybe a timeout after a mistake for a discussion (WITHOUT pulling him from the game), and back to the battle…
We know how far we can go with Al & Paul, and most (including Jazz brass) think our potential is greater than that. Only one way to find out!
@Marty – I agree with you about Kanter, I also think it lust annoy him thay he gets pulled for a mistake but other players make mistakes and left on the court
Jazz think of their bench as a trophy case for displaying all their lottery picks from the past 5 years while they put a team on the court of middling veterans.
I will give Corbin props for last night. He recognized Foye couldn’t guard Joe Johnson or Gerald Wallace. Randy gave it a good effort, he’s just smaller. So Corbin went with DMC after that. Could have gone with Marvin Williams I think as well. He also played Kanter with Al for a stretch and closed the game with Favors and Al. I think we would have lost if Favors hadn’t been in there protecting the rim. He also had Gordon Hayward running the offense and Mo playing the off guard. Perhaps he’s been reading all my posts
Notice most of those moves were made with Defense, not offense, in mind.
Agree, agree, agree, agree @Avery! And all comments above.
What I do not get and is completely illogical is why ppl say, “well Hayward needs to come off the bench so that he can handle the ball, cuz offense runs through Al and so thats why Foye starts,” which is true, but why not bench Al, and thereby Foye, and insert Hayward and Favors, at least (Im crazy so my starting 5 would be Kanter, Favors, Marvin, Burks, and Hayward), but at least Favors and Hayward for Al and Foye.
Al in 33 minutes had ZERO free throw attempts?! And thats are damn center, come on?! Al is Josh Howard, a blackhole iso SF that cant hit the 3, takes mostly midrange shots (not in the paint), and thats why he never goes to the line, whereas Favors in 25 minutes went 5/6 from FTs.
Nets really exposed Foye as a starting SG, they got that big lead by running the O throw JJ post up or iso 1-on-1 against Foye. Jazz double and Nets got wide open shots or layup/dunks. Once Carroll or Hayward took JJ he faded away from the game. Hayward needs to start, so bench Al (Foye).
I just dont get it, I wouldnt be surprised if Favors only gets like 16 minutes tonight and Kanter about 12 and Burks DNP, while Al gets 34, Foye 28, and Tinsley like 17.
Foye should get Tinsley minutes and Al should get traded and Burks Foye minutes.
@KC But lets be honest who in there right mind thinks Foye can guard Wallace or Joe in the 1st place? Get ready to watch him guard Paul George and Wade the next two hahaha
echos from the past. I remember years ago the same negative comments being made about a Jazz coach, but he (Jerry Sloan) went on to a very successful career, and a spot in the hall of fame. Arm chair coaches are super becase they never make a mistake. They are always perfect.
get a life and give Ty a break for not being as smart as you are.
Oh yeah, I find it quite comical we’ve been saying things we see all year, and then Corbin, 30% into the season, finally sees it and makes an adjustment. And that was just one game. We’ll see if its a trend or an outlier.
KC Why don’t you apply for the job, then we can rip you a new one.
This is beyond Xs and Os basketball, this is just bad basic business common sense.
In a business, a competitive business, you need new technology to succeed, you need to invest and develop that new technology, you just do not continue to push the same old outdated version. Imagine if Jobs never invested in new technology?! Apple would be some mediocre software company and not the APPLE™.
Jazz have two #3 picks, #9th pick, and #12 pick that havent even played 3 full season. Actually cuz of lock Hayward and Favors have barely played two full seasons. Kanter and Burks barely one.
Al, Foye, Tinsley, and Watson are averaging about 95 minutes.
Core 4 about 60 minutes.
Thats just bad business.
Actually Omar you’re wrong. The Jazz have one of the best business models in the NBA. It sucks for us fans though. The Jazz have a philosophy of win now, play the players that can help you win now (these are often mediocre vets) instead of taking the risk of developing young players, therefor liking losing games, money, etc.
By making very low risk moves the Jazz are able to make the playoffs year in and year out. And in most cases an NBA franchise’s season does NOT become profitable until you make the playoffs Hence the Jazz risking little, but just enough to make the playoffs every year, this is their business model and it has been working in that regard. By being a low-risk and consistent business the franchise are able to employee thousands of Utahns.
If the Utah Jazz were one of the Millers car dealership they’d be the fourth largest as far as revenue is concerned. Utah plays it safe and always close to the best for an economic reason.
Also one last thing: If you truly new the game you’d know Ty is doing a solid job with what he has: Look at all of our players and rate them in the league for their position…actually just try it with out top 5 players…PG…what would Mo be about the #10-12 best pg in the league? at best
SG..Foye easily in the teens
SF..Marvin or Hayward…not top ten
PF..Sap again not ten
C…Al Jefferson…Probably anywhere from 4-8 best C in the league
All in all our entire starting 5 isn’t as great as we all think…Corbin is doing a pretty good job having this team in playoff contention with very little top talent
@Chase – We don’t have any idea how good some of our players are because every play is run through Jefferson. I also disagree about your idea of the Jazz business model as a few years back the Jazz were paying one of the highest rosters in the league. If you are right in the business model then they need to look at how successful the new Clippers model is.
I agree Jazz will always be above water, but that’s just not good enough. When Hayward, Burks, Kanter, and Favors are helping teams win championships, they will just how bad a business model it was investing in Al, Foye, Tinsley, and Watson when we had Core 4. Or actually making the case for why Corbin is a bad coach: those mediocre players you listed play cuz coach Corbin plays them. No one forces those line ups on Corbin, he decides minutes, so him playing them is on him.
@Chase how good of a model will it be when all 4 of those kids are not on the team because they are not happy with how they are treated here?
Oh and if it was a good model then they would not have lost about 16 mil last year and they would have been putting butts in the seats this year.
@Dallan- I didn’t say it was perfect. But as a stand alone business model it has been financially solid. Last year was one of the very few times they have ever paid the luxury tax, but even with that decision came the massive amounts of cap flexibility that the Jazz have next season. They have a very insignificant amount of money committed to the team as of right now, which will virtually give them the option to do as they choose next year.
“all 4 of those kids aer not on the team because they are not happy with how they are treated here”
Who says they’re not happy with how they’re being treated? Rooks and 2nd year players don’t often get much PT-that is a fact unless you’re a !@#$% team…the reality is none of them has forced their way into the lineup, the only one that you can make the argument for is Favors, but even at that he’s been incredibly inefficient offensively.
At the same time IF you are going to trade big Al and/or Sap you would need to play them to increase their value. IF you bench any of them for the younger player their value decreases and you don’t get what you want out of them. Makes sense? or is business 101 a bit over your head?
@diso- you can’t take one year of a team paying the luxury tax and deam them as not healthy financially. And are you talking about the Clippers team that is currently towards the top of the Division? they seem to be doing all right. One season here or there doesn’t make a teams business model good or bad, but to have a team that consistently competes and his regularly under the salary cap. That is a financially successful business model. You can’t argue that.
I don’t like competing for mediocrity like we’ve done the last 20 years either, all I’m saying is that you need to understand the way the Jazz do things. We are a conservative franchise, that has a very safe model. We are highly unlikely to go and throw all the “kids” out there at once and hope they’re great. You have unrealistic expectations.
@disco-also the coaching staff knows EXACTLY how good our players are. They spend hours and hours and hours training, practicing and playing with these players. Do you really think that for one second the Jazz coaching staff would not play a player that is truly incredible? someone that is just amazing in practice is just going to not get playing time? No the rooks gotta earn there keep and when they are better than the person ahead of them they’ll play. You don’t play someone based on potential unless you’re at the bottom.
@Omar you’re missing the point sir. Those players listed are his best options. If you look down the bench it doesn’t get better and better the further you go. I love our team and I think we’re deep with great potential BUT our young players need to start TAKING the minutes. They get the chance and aren’t stepping up to the plate. Burks hasn’t earned it like he did last year…Foye and DC are getting his minutes and rightfully so…Foye is hitting the three like we need and DC is our junkyard dog. Sap and Jefferson are the two best players on the team bottom line; Sap is getting 15ppg and 8 rbs and leads the team is steals
Al is at 17 ppg and 10rbs. They both have their defensive problems and it pisses me off two, but until the younger guys can put a better product on the floor that Jefferson and Sap are, they don’t deserve the time.
Then how come Bell got to start at the first part of last season and stunk very bad??? It was not till he was coming off an injury that he was not used as much then he pouted and stormed out the door at the end of the season.
Also there is no way Burks and Evans could do any worse that Watson and Tinsley. Yes I know they are point guards but Hayward and Burks could do just as well. And how can these players earn time if they don’t get any. When Jazz had injuries a few weeks ago they both showed promise. Bottom line is Corbin can’t see past the vets..
WHY IS WATSON PLAYING, Corbin!!
Mr. Chase, if you think Al is one of our best players, there is nothing I can do for you. Yes Al averages 17.4 PPG…on 15.4 FG attempts; Favors is averaging 9 points on 7 FG attempts, so that would be 18 points on 14 shots. AND Favors is a superior defender than Al. So no Al is not even the best OFFENSIVE frontcourt player with the Jazz. Millsap is averaging 15 points on 11 shots; Kanter is averaging 6 points on 5 shots, so with 15 shots (like Al) Kanter would get 18 points.
Al is the worse defensive frontcourt player, and per shot attempts, Al is the worst offensive player, and AL has never been benched by Corbin and over the last 2 years has lead team in minutes.
And how do you explain Corbin playing Watson, CJ, Howard, and Bell over the last two years—over the guy you said is good DC???? THis has been going on for two years, so how do you explain that.
Omar- Fortunately I don’t need you to do anything for me. I didn’t say that Al was our most offensively efficient players, but if you don’t get that he’s one of our best players, you just don’t understand the sport sir. You are measuring the best player by offensive shot efficiency.
@LK I didn’t think that Bell should have been starting when he did, but Corbin gave him a chance and he failed. That is going to happen. Not every move that our team takes will be a good one.
I’ll stand by what i’ve said in the past, that i believe corbin can be a good coach… BUT…
Nothing pisses me off more than watching this entire game with his hands in his pockets, and no emotion at all!!!!! PISSES ME OFF!!! Your team is playing this terribly and your just gonna let it continue??? Your not gonna yell at these guys for there lackluster, lazy, and pathetic play??? your not going to get after the refs for all of these terrible miss calls??? What the hell Corbin!?! How can you expect your team to fight and bring energy if you don’t do the same and hold yourself to the same standard!!! Wathcing him and this team tonight makes me throw up!!! I can’t believe this stupid ass
@Steve…I’m with you there…light a damn fire under someones @ss would ya? No excuse for lack of effort or intensity…PLAY HARD!
@Chase, you didn’t answer the question about Watson (last year/this year), CJ, Howard?
Do you do not agree that Al is the worst defender?? All I hear is that the Jazz will fall apart without Al scoring ability—I am saying he scoring ability is because he takes a ton of shots, if most Jazz players took 15 shots per game they would average at least what Al does but that is Al cap.
How why is Al one of the best?? He can’t play D, doesn’t get to line, he is inefficient. I don’t get the sport if the object is to play your worst defending frontcourt player the most minutes, and have your most inefficient scoring frontcourt player taking the most shots. That sport I do not get.
Jaque Vaughn benched his whole starting unit when they were getting blown out. Corbin gives them, despite getting blown out, their minutes…..
Why is Watson playing???!!!
Points in the paint at half:
Pacers 28……Jazz TWO.
Sorry Omar, I stopped reading what you wrote because frankly it’s like trying to talk to a little kid, but I just went back and read it.
The fact that you’re even asking why certain players were playing in the bast is silly. Obviously they THOUGHT it was a good decision to play them, but coaches aren’t always perfect Omar, they are going to make mistakes and some of the players that you mentioned would be some of them. Watson, Tinsley etc….they’re playing what they have. Look, Corbin isn’t perfect, and may sometimes play people that we don’t want,but they’ve got their reasons from playing them
I can promise you that they know a lot more about certain players than we do, after all they see them everyday. Maybe some of the younger guys; Kanter, Burks, etc, don’t always know the plays? maybe they have bad attitudes? there could be many reasons, but as a fan you can chose to question every thing or you can leave it to the PROFESSIONALS. It’s really easy to be armchair coaching over there, but the reality is you don’t seem to know !@#$% about what’s going on so just sit back and try to enjoy it.
hahaha @Chase, like a “little kid”…this coming from someone being insulting and using curse words..tsss, tsss, hahaha. So this is Corbin’s profession to make quality decision and he makes that many mistakes….thats makes his case even worse.
You still don’t answer the question, apart from personal attacks, you really didn’t say much—apart from the contrite your stupid, you don’t know anything blah, blah.
If you need to think about why Burks is better than Watson, if you need to think about why Tinsley is better than Watson, then you MUST know something I don’t. Cuz if you think Watson is better than either of them, you must have inside information, cuz just based on basketball, that makes no sense.
@Chase i agree 100% percent with everything you just said.haha
Its hard trying to find everyone minutes, when each player brings something you want or need. He is doing the best he can with it. In time the FO will help him out and trim the roster, because these young guys are playing well and need to take that next step. To find Burks time you’ve got sit someone, but who? Watson and Tinsley are on this team because they are floor general type PGs and provide leadership that is needed. Can’t and won’t sit them. Burks cannot play PG, he simply is not one. He’s a scorer all the way, which is not a bad thing. Foye is in the starting lineup and plays a good chunk of minutes because he is a spot up shooter. Jefferson and Millsap needs space to operate down low, and Foye is a legit 3pt threat so defenders cannot sag off of him. Gordon is the SG of the 2nd unit and he needs his touches and shots. So to get burks time who do you sit?
@Chase- Just checking if you’re a high school student as you seem to think a good player is one that gets points and rebounds. Basketball is alot bigger than that. Mate, you seem happy for the Jazz to be mediocre and thats fine for you but I expect teams I follow to want to compete. As far as the old Clippers business model, it was get the young superstars through the draft and then let them go in free agency so they never have to pay high salaries. I believe they were in the top 5 most profitable franchises in the league with this model but their results were a joke. They changed this model, got a superstar and are a massive success. I also believe the Jazz had the 10th highest payroll in professional sports during the09/10 season according to ESPN magazine. A few tips when arguing, no swearing and make sure you back up your arguments with relevant facts from both sides. Remember these and your high school English teachers will mark you higher in your essays.
Yup, I start actually paying attention at about the 3-4 minute mark in the 1st and 3rd quarters. I love watching the young guys play. This is an honest question here: Does Corbin actually have an offense installed? I mean besides pass the ball to Al with about 15 on the shot, he then holds til about 4 seconds and takes a contested shot while being double teamed? My patience, as a fan, for Corbin is wearing extremely thin. IMHO he isnt the coach this team needs.
@Larry Negative: You’re right. Why should we as fans question the decisions made when we could be mindless drones and just clap and hand over money without regard to actual product given to us? And if we do have an opinion, and voice it, that obviously means we think we know more, right?
I just want my team to do as well as possible, and I’ll give my opinion from my point of view as a fan that wants a championship team. Obviously I’m not at practice and not in the GMs office and not privy to the balance sheet, but don’t tell me not to have or voice an opinion or that I should apply for the GM job because I happen to voice my opinion.
@ Aaron Avery,
I also wanted to say about your comment about having scoring droughts with the second unit starting scenario, I see Favors pick and roll to the basket wide open several times a night and the PG cant or wont get him the ball. It infuriates me! He could be a scoring machine if they would actually execute the P&R with Favors. Kanter too.
lol @disco.
Well said KC!
totally agree RiverJ
@Chase you obviously do not know much. They did not pay the luxury tax last year. They were not close to the line. They lost 16 million because people did not come to games. And in fact this year the numbers are down as well..
Ya know you can all stand and say Corbin is a young coach and blah blah blah but Jacque Vaughn is taking a team with far less talent then ours and is basically even with our team! So how is that young coach learning so quickly on the fly? I mean he has only had what 20 games!? Hahaha
Cause Corbin has no idea what hes doing? KOC and Lindseys “Commitment to Mediocrity!!” haha
All the empty seats in Energy Solutions Arena speak for themselves.
The only time it’s crowded are when we play the Nuggets, Suns, or Lakers.
And that’s because the stands are filled with Nuggets, Suns, and Lakers fans.
You guys all remember how I wrote lots of posts preaching patience for Ty Corbin?
My patience is exhausted. Corbin is the worst in-game manager in the NBA. His plays consist of giving the ball to Mo Williams and Al Jefferson and expecting something to happen.
He routinely leaves players who are dead in the water ON the cpurt, while pulling players who are hot-handed OFF the court.
His substitutions are beyond awful. His lineup utilizations are atrocious. His handling of young players is an outrage.
He is stubborn and oblivious, and rewards only obedience and mediocrity.
Matt Harpring talks sh*t on the team and coach during commercial breaks (the camera mic caught him yesterday).
Randy Foye remains in the starting lineup. As a starter for the Jazz, Foye has 168 points on 143 shots. Thats .85 points per shot. League average is 1 PPS.
(nba.com/playerfile/randy_foye/season_splits.html)
By the way, this just in:
Tyrone Corbin has cancelled Thursday’s practice (they play the Heat on Saturday).
Tyrone Corbin is “not concerned” about this loss. “It’s just one game.” Says he will not start Derrick Favors or make other lineup changes.
Coach of the Year.
@Chase Foye is hitting the 3 like we need… sometimes, but not cosnsitantly. Hes a role player not a starter. He takes jump shots thats it. Hes streaky. Alot of good 3pt shooters usually are, but they are also usually role players that a good coach will not start if they dont have other aspects of their game to contribute.
Tonights Pacer game is prime example of what fans are pissed about. Im surprised your so clueless. Foye went 1-8. 1-6 behind the arc with -28 efficiency. And Corbin played him half the game. Thats good coaching? Our entire veteran starting lineup scored a COMBINED 35 points in 114 minutes of playing time. Efficiency ratings as follows: -23,-23,-27,-28,-30. And they STILL soaked 114 min. of playing time. Thats good coaching??
Since Ty took over, age and previous career accolades has dictated Ty’s coaching lineups and playing time. Not production and talent. It doesnt matter if a player is a rook, 2nd year, 3rd year, or 20th year. The most productive game changing players should be in the game until they are tired and then the next best should be in. its ok to experiment for different looks. but by 5-10 min. into a game down 10 points a coach should know who the hell is productive and make adjustments. Last year it took players getting injured to force Ty into playing the better talent. If Howard, Earl, and CJ would have been healthy we wouldnt have made the playoffs. Its happening again this year. Its not a fluke that our best offensively produced game of the year and highest winning margin of 32 points came when Al was out. Against Toronto, but the same team with Al in took 3 overtimes to squeak by.
Trying to make excuses for Corbin is not in your best interest when every game he proves you wrong…
I agree completely with all the disgust around Corbin. However, nothing will change. Nothing we say or do will make a dang bit of difference cause that stupid fool will continue to be bone headed and ridiculous when it comes to his substitutions.
I can’t even believe that he doesn’t seem to realize how obvious it is that he needs to play certain players more, and sit others. I mean if he isn’t smart enough to realize this, then what chance do we EVER have? I feel like i’m taking crazy pills when I watch him coach.
Ty Corbin needs to go he cant coach
@kevin… i too am on those same pills your taking now.
A great coach should be fearless. He should have a sound understanding of the game, as well as the positives & negatives of each player. He is a motivator and a disciplinary. He is a tactician. Is Corbin any of that?
Yeah, it seems that Bogdan Tanjevic was right, Corbin don’t know anything about basketball
…………
At least Corbin is good enough to have had a job in the greatest basketball league in the world. No one ever said Corbin was a good coach. But Tanjevic can’t even get his country’s team to the olympics so he must have just been regurgitating what he had heard someone else say who knows the game.
of course, his country have half the people of the salt lake city area
So what you’re saying is India, China and Japan should be winning gold, silver, and bronze every year then? Population doesn’t equal talent. Of course more people will offer more choices, but any slightly decent coach can win games and QUALIFY for the Olympics with enough of a pool to choose from. Tanjevic is no different. Except where he uses it as a crutch and lame excuse, you have the USA winning medals even though we’re a ghost town compared to Bangalore.
No, it’s obvious that USA have the bronze, Japan is only 130 millions people……
True. So then I still wonder why India isn’t the perennial Gold medalist….And the US wins Gold instead of Bronze as you pointed out.
probably because india just don’t care about any sport instead of Cricket, like china is more in individual sports, like europe is definitely a football continent, it’s cultural my friend……..