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Locked out problems and players
Posted by: Bryant Brown on July 1st, 2011
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.Yesterday I wrote a post on Raja Bell and the stupid twitter post he had. Today Antwan Jamison (another player worth just about nothing…) commented today on how the superstars are banning together and are better prepared for this. He lived through the last lock out and he feels like this force of men banning together will help. Does anyone else see the problem?! we don’t have player rivalries any more. we don’t have people wanting to win and be the best… they want to win to make more money. Its great that everyone in the NBA are becoming friends… if you want to watch boring basketball. I think this is part of the problem the owners are whining about. there isn’t competition anymore as much as a show of skills. its like the WWF of the professional sports now. I think the owners want more control of their own team, and frankly i don’t blame them. How are you suppose to build a franchise if the players dictate everything?
Here is the link if anyone wants to read it… its pretty short i just posted it so you all don’t think im making stuff up.
http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/214511/Jamison_Players_Better_Prepared_Than_Last_Lockout
Replies: 76
Views: 1194
76 Responses
Once again, I disagree Bryant. I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think the players have to hate each other to have good competition with each other. They side together and are united and friends off the court during the lockout, but in the case of about 90% of the players, once you step on the court, the competition is on. I have no problem with them being friends off the court.
i’m with Kaleb, in sport nothing is better than prooving to a friend that you’re better than him……
Kaleb – Im not saying people have to throw down punches… but im pretty sure what we saw from LeBron these finals was the opposite of “the competition is on” and more… can this game be over with so i can go play with my friends? As MJ was saying after “the decision” he would never recruit players like that… he would want to show the world he is the best. Not that he could get a bunch of good players together and beat up on everyone else.
Really? The tweet of “It’s now or never” before the game said to you “I’m gonna go hang out with my friends”? I could clearly see the level of competition in the NBA Finals this year. I do agree with you about the recruiting of your friends and fellow elite players to play with you. But once those elite players were on the same roster they were out to compete with everyone else. And everyone else was out to not get beaten, like the Mavericks.
Bryant isn’t saying you can’t be friends but what he is saying is they want to be buddies make more money and have more control. Its typical union garbage and unions are the devil as Waterboys (Bobby Butchei) mom would say.
Bryant is just saying that by the players gaining more control they end up making more and cometing less, they get soft because they don’t have to prove themselves in order to get compesated at a high level. Owners that are losing money aren’t going to give in. THis could be a long lockout if the players are uniting, but the funny thing will be come next fall when they don’t get paychecks and the drop dead deadline is soon to be and they look at missing a whole year, if you look at missing a whole year and the players not receiving a total of 2.19 billion in payout, you could never get paid more in the long term to make up for that loss or at least it would take decades to do that which in the end won’t happen as the owners are not going to stop the lockout until they can be profitable which means less compesation. If Derek Fisher the fearless leader were smart he would say “hey guys uh we’re lucky to be getting paid millions right now, we are going to end up having less control, less pay, worse ratings and make things a whole lot worse for ourselves… we should take the deal the owners are presenting and just shut-up and play ball, a game that we get paid to play”. I say the owners just lockout, start a new leaugue ran by the owners and recruit new talent from college and over seas… The nba would have no value if the owners did not participate and the contracts witht he players would be worthless as well. The players would then come crawling back to play in the new league and the players previous contracts would be worthless so buying those contracts out would cost nothing and then we get a new league with players that realize its a privelage to be a professional player and get paid and if you don’t like then you can go to another league that exists where there are unions and garbage like the NBA.
What is Bell’s twitter handle?
“Unions are the devil”, hahahahahahahaha, you americans are funny, and little bit naïve too……
I have visited France before.. and the Union truckers blocking freeways when thy don’t get their way with there trucks or when the commuter system shuts down for days on end makes me think Unions are evil. Especially when the people are making millions of dollars and even the lowest paid are in the hundreds of thousands. What rights need to be protected again?
Don’t you mean Hee-hee-haw-haw… Then go back to France smarty pants. Everone knows what damage unions can make and the NBA is seeing this right now so I guess you need to pay a little closer attention to all the damage these types of organizations cause. Oh, and um James Harden wants his beard back but make sure you disinfect, pick the bugs out and wash it before you give it to him. You Frenchies are are so NOT FUNNY and a little bit lazy too…Not wise to insult americans in on an american NBA discussion. I don’t think any of us will take it to kindly.
if you have the advantage of the number, and don’t use it, you’re just a stupid slave……
and by the way Jake, i didn’t knew that “funny” and “naive” were insults……. thanks for the english lesson
That doesn’t even make sense… so mob rule is ok?
I agree with Bryant, that doesn’t make any sense… What is it you are trying to say French Dude? Did you think that calling americans “Funny and Naive” would be taken as compliments? Maybe they didn’t teach you in your english lessons that certain words are condescending especially when putting it in a paticular way or context that would suggest that we are stupid and ingorant people. I was just giving you a dose of your own medicine which got you agrivated obviously which is what you tried to do do too me… don’t insult americans we’re awesome! We saved your butts many times so just say thanks or at least don’t insult us.
what does not make sense, to be united to defend your rights, it’s just some logic to me, with the number you have strengh, logic, unions are made for that, where is the devil in that ????
Bryant what does mod rule mean? Does that mean we can gang up on french dude and defend our own? Heck yeah we can, strength in numbers right! Its a good thing strength in numbers were there to save France thoughout the years.
you learn fast jake, you are going to create an union, good thing…..
The devil is in unions going into the street and picketing in court rooms. Didn’t you see the mess of some of the unions and the fighting and contention they caused 3 months ago or so back east? Strength in numbers I’m all for, but not when its to create problems and ultimatley is self defeating and damagig to the people that are rallying together.
Its like illegal immagrants coming into our country and storming our streets that our grand parents fought to defend and create. They want to take whats ours and make it theirs through their strength in their numbers. I hate that crap its just not right. The owners were the ones who made it possible for the players to even be in the game and then they keep wnating more and more until they this stuff happens. Strength in numbers for the wrong reasons, this would be one of them. You don’t want to bite the hand that feeds you which these NBA players are definitly doing when they say stupid stuff like we aren’t going to crack. “Them’s is fightin words” and they’re fighting with their revenue source, now if that sounds weird it’s because it is, it just doesn’t make sense and I would be saying the same thing as the owners which is take this offer or things get worse for you on the next round of negotiations. Lets hope Raja can say welcome to McDonalds may I take your order please because he’s out of a Job… so don’t crack Raja… Don’t crack and enjoy them fries from mickey’dee’s…. Hey I guess we american’s are funny:)
Unions are to take from those who create, we are proteckting what already ours, american defend not only their own but the whole world. Nothing Union about that, we aren’t taking from anyone who created our opportunity we are defending what we made. BIG DIFFERENCE!!
I have always stood by this phrase “if the rule is more important than why the rule is created it probably shouldn’t be a rule anymore” In the case of a union there was clear reasons why they were created. however, today we have government regulations from the BBB, to minimum wage, to having to supply heath care over a certain amount of hours, they pay half of your taxes, etc etc etc. Before these were around all you had was the Union… you want to see the failures of a Union vs non union workers… Go no farther than the GM plant in the midwest that was shut down vs the Toyota plant next door that is non unionized working just fine.
So what you are saying was the mob ruling in France that burned hundreds of cars and set your country into a state of panic a few years back was ok because large numbers got together?
you don’t want to bite the hand that feeds you, okay, but in that case, who feeds who, without players no income, without their names and images, no jersey to sell, no advertize on TV, and when you see the owners united, you don’t think “union”….. it’s more complicated than just greedy players against nice bosses………. for the rest i don’t see the point of union take from those who create, unions take nothing, unions are just a tool to have decent life if they are used correctly……
Now I get the Mob reference Bryant… Well spoken, sir…I totally agree. Americans 1… Frenchies ZERO… Hey this is kind of a new sport, looks like we found some competition to replace the lockout… and this competition is FREE! Although it may cost you your pride when beat by an american or 2. LOL good fun…
the event of few years had nothing to do with unions or work, the beginning was with cops killing kids, the rest was more like civil war without any claiming, but for the record, every 25 december, a thousand of cars are burning, so it wasn’t very unusual
There are hundreds of athletes willing to take any players place at a fraction of the pay and we would cheer for them… Heck we cheer for terrible singers on american idle and all those stupid shows on TV, we cheer for 500lb people with no talent but determination to makeover their body, we don’t just cheer and become fans for the big talent…in fact I would dare say we cheer for the underdog far more than any lebron or jordan. There are hundreds of underdogs that would love a chance and wouldn’t be thinking about the average player pay being 5 million or 7 million.
As far as the owners I don’t think they want to be in a union either which is the reason they are discussing a hard cap. By making things a hard cap you even the playing field and the large markets can’t dominate nearly as much. Thats why it has to go that way. The cap has to be low enough for the smaller markets to still compete. The current system is a redistribution of wealth garbage that penalizes large markets for going over the cap and takes dollar for dollar paid into a fund that is redistributed to other teams below the cap or something to that effect. Well the large market teams are taking the hit and still profiting and out doing the smaller teams for the most part. We do have the draft that helps even things out which is good I mean look at the Thunder and now us taking advantage of draft picks, something that the large markets won;t get as much of unless they trade talent for those picks. Anyway…I’m getiting off point… The owners are connected to eachother because you couldn’t just have 8 teams in the league to play against eachother becasue they can be profitable, that woul mean less players less veiwers less interest it just wouldn’t work, so when owners need other markets to go up against them they start what would be considered to be more of a partnership whether they like it or not. They are tied together because their organization competes against the others, its the nature of the business so these rules have been put in place to help organizations stay competetive more evenly. Rules and guidelines doesn’t make them unions it makes them businessmen putting in place the peramiters that need to be met by all that are going to be in the game just like playing the game of basketball, that way everyone has a fair chance and it’s consistent acrossed the board.
Nothing UNION about that either! Like I said Unions leave a trail of distruction and it gives power to those that really don’t know what the heck they’re talking about, it also gives people power that aren’t qualified to have it becasue they do stupid things with it, and blow stuff up if they don’t get their way… are those the kinds of people we wan’t holding the power? Sounds like terrorists… thats my new thing lol… Unions are the same as terrorists! lol
@French Dude
I feel like I need to let you know about the extreme dislike and distrust of anything union in Utah. It is probably the most anti-union state in the nation. So that is coloring most of the anti-union rants you are hearing here. It also shows the lack of understanding these writers have of the history of unions and how much better their lives and workplaces are because of what unions did in the past. We would all be working for next to nothing and have no health or safety benefits if it were not for the pressure an organized group can put on management. But I bet these same writers who want to put caps on salaries and control players believe that government should stay completely out of business and their lives and complain bitterly when they are not allowed the freedom to do whatever they want.
@jake, i’m totally for a hard cap, but i know this will never happen, because big markets have the power with Stern in their bed, big markets are manipulating Small markets, to have what they want, less expensive good players, to have more of them in their roster, to strenghten their domination on the NBA, small markets will just be here to count until 30……… i bet it’s not what you want…….. so you admit that the union is not the problem, the problem is the people, yes, the idiot is always right because he have the majority, “people aren’t qualified to have power” aren’t qualified to take good decision for them, so we have to think for them, to take care of them, are you deeply Communist Jake ???????
yes Deb, i had noticed some union anti-union here…..
Of course we think government should stay out of business, Maybe the thing you should be doing before writing why we don’t know what we’re talking about you should go read the Costitution. Government was never about regulating business. Thats what the whole free market place is for, meaning we can work for the best opportunity given, we can buy the best deals we can go for the cheapest insurance, we can invest for ourselves instead of relying on social security or pensions… I’m not saying you can’t be part of a union… if thats what you want then go right ahead just don’t be a problem to the people that started the companies. If you don’t like what their doing then go somewher else its that simple. Don’t rely on unions all that stuff takes to much money hikes up costs and eventually colapses which is why there are so few today and why its a thing of the past for most business. The owners of teams need to make the right financial descisions for them ans the playes can make the choices for themselves, if they don’t like it then quit playing, try to go to another team to that will give you what you want, don’t sign the contract or agreement, go try and become an owner yourself, go get a job where you can control whatever you want, but don’t say we aren’t going to crack because the people who pay your salery (the fans) don’t like that and will resent players that do that and I know I’m not the minority with seeing it this way. Again unions cuase things like lockouts… in regular buisiness if you didn;t like it you kill the contract and go elsewhere into the free market place. Let it regulate itself it works far better. Look at states like Utah and Texas which are among the best states to live in and run buisness. Government isn;t getting in the way as much we don’t have the weight that places that want unions and helthcare and other garbage that weighs things down to the point of bankruptcy, which is what the sports world ond owners are looking at needing to do in many situations because of this garbage.
@Deb I clearly stated that a union had its time and place. That was at a time government took a complete hands off approach to business. They felt it was not the place of the Feds to interfere. Now that we have rules and regulations as well as Osha, Works Comp, Social Secuirty, BBB (all these are government regulated programs… not unionized programs) making unions less important. It has brought down the destruction of the American car companies… go see GM in the DOW. oh wait it was taken off… GM is shackled to the corpse of retired members, pentions sound nice but it has severe economic consequences that is why we have moved to 401(k) plans. I agree 100% that unions were essential to the foundation of our work place today. But so was the type writer at one point… just because it was so fundamental doesn’t mean we have to hold onto it forever. In fact I would love to see an example of what good a union has done in the last decade that counters what damage it has done in the same amount of time. please Deb show me the light!
ok, so if i understand everything, free market place, better opportunities, best deals, big markets, no regulation by the governement, no hard cap by the NBA, free running for the business, big money and big players for big markets, no place for small markets, the big is free to eat the small………….. Weird, i thought we were here to defend chances for Small markets ??!
This is pointless to hash out any longer… here I am talking about free market place and you want to say I’m a communist… lol, wow… In business why do CEO’s and high profile people get the job to run a company and get paid much higher to do so? Typically its becasue they are more qualified and they have more ability and understanding than the average person. Doesn’t mean the average person doesn’t have the capacity to be like the ceo it just means that they aren’t there yet and may never desire to be a ceo… that said if a company decided to allow the decisions to be made by an average employee that had no ability or experience to run a company just to save a buck well that would end up very badly. Now if that company all of a suden was overtaken by the employees within through strikes and gaining power by threatening the company that they WILLINGLY went to work for and decided that they were going to make all of the decisions, well now you have a bunch of people that took over a company that wasn’t theirs (theifs) and started making decisions for the company which they have no understanding on how to make things run, they will know how to do one thing well which is RUN the thing into the ground and destroy the creation of the others who built the company to begin with. Total difference in beliefs, I like to be free, I don’t like others having control over me, nor do I want control over others, I like a system where it works for everyone or I can go elsewhere or they can go elsewhere and it’s each of our choices to do so. That isn’t comunism at all. Let the owners decide what they feel is best for them and if the players don;t want to go along with it then the lockout continues and knowbady wins… its that simple. If it can’t come to a resolution the NBA will be done bew league will be created and you’ll have the ABA transition to the NBA again, and it won’t be where the control is given to players it will go by those who create the league and make it work for them, those who create… did you ever hear the saying he who has the gold makes the rules… well since the players don’t have what it takes to own a team or run a league (they’re to busy buying stuff) then they will have to go by what the rules of those who have the money to make these things happen. This will all be put in perspective in time for the players if they don’t wise up, and if its a lot to do with the large markets well they can’t make it happen on their own either so they will have to find something that works for the other markets if they want a league to exist. The natural FREE market will ultimately determine if the owners get the changes they need or if they decide to fold up shop (I don’t think thats what happens) but if the players really aren’t going to crack (Raja) then yes it will happen. Anyways, I’ve reached my time limit of wasting time for the week so see you all next week hope you all have an awesome 4th of July celebrating which is what our country is all about INDEPENDANCE free from control (free from unions..just kidding, thought I would throw a jab French Dude) …. and remember VIVA-LA-FRANCE!!!
@Bryant “……..just because it was so fundamental doesn’t mean we have to hold onto it forever……” just like your Constitution ??!! Sorry, bad joke
@Jake, and talking about your Independence, if i remember well, a guy named La Fayette was on the line of fire for you, a guy came from a little country called France…… it seems that French men have saved your butt once too
I am not sure you are aware of the amendments… plus all the Judicial court rulings…
I am all for the small market. i want the owners to hold out forever if it will help it. either way this wasn’t my point to begin with. it was just that competition seems less important than money to these guys.
Deb, the reason we are so against unions in UT, WY… is that we have to work for a living. We are like the small market teams. When we made “next to nothing” most things cost next to nothing. Health benifits you have a point. I dispise your “safety” rules. I have to wear a hard hat in a field because OSHA thinks the sky might fall on me. Or an orange vest on the top of the scaffold so OSHA can see me if I fall. You are right about people like myself wishing the government would let up on buisness. Maybe not stay completely out, but quit making more and more rules that make our jobs worse than they already are.
they are making a pro sport, of course money is important, if not they have to play lacrosse or other amateur sport, but they are gamer, with big ego, and a big ego want to win, i want to win, even for free, but i’m not against some millions
I don’t know that his involvement was the key to our success alone but you’re right he was AWESOME as well and we love what he did for our country. He’s as much an American as any of us being that this country was built from immigrants so again that guy was acool dud and did play some very crucial roles and we appreciate it and acknowledge what he risked to help this country. VIVA LE LAFAYETTE oh wait that doesn’t really work for him because um well he’s uh… you know already um gone so I guess… VIVA LA FRANCE lol… It’s all good, GOOD TIMES!!
cool dude not dud big difference!
Cant we all just sit around campfire and sing kumbaya? I think we’re forgetting this isn’t a “argument” site or “bashing on other people” site. And one other thing that no one has mentioned….Antawn Jamison tweeting about All-Stars banning together…wait he’s an all-star? that was so 2008
The French involvement in the Revolutionary war totally destroyed their own country. They only did it to hurt the British but ended up causing the whole country to go bankrupt. So technically they only helped because they were spiteful and angry over constant defeat at the hands of the british. Our constitution lied on a higher plane of Intelligence compared to the rest of the world at the time. This was clearly shown through Maximilien Robespierre and his absolutely terrifying reign during the French Revolution. The French were unable to grasp the true concept of Liberty and kept getting themselves deeper into Tyranny. You shouldn’t bag on the most infuential document the world has seen since the Magna Carta.
I am interested to see the recent successes of Unions as well Deb. Especially for the demograph that dominates the Workforce in the state of Utah.
Bryant,
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share an example with you. My husband works for a company that has plants in several states. Because he works at a plant in Utah, he makes $5.00 less an hour than if he worked in a union state, he also has no retirement benefits whereas the union in the other plants recently negoiated with the company to provide, so yes a union where he works would have benefitted him greatly.
But I do agree that we need to get back to discussing Jazz and NBA Basketball on this site and not the history of labor relations in the United States or France.
@Deb
I mean no offense whatsoever but unless your Husband cannot provide for your family due to being under paid and mistreated at work I do not see the relevance of your example. That is no championing success of the Unions. I feel that as long as the workers are being treated fairly according to law that owners of businesses should not be forced into giving more benefits/ higher wages to workers.
as well as union dues etc etc.. and having to have certain years under your belt… anyways my whole point was I am not happy players are banning together!
@JRN5150
Thanks for asking, and yes my husband does not quite make enough to support his family that is part of why I work. HE is not mistreated. What I am saying is that if we lived in a state more union friendly, even after union dues we would make quite a bit more money and after 30 years at the same job we would have retirement benefits. I am also saying the reason we even have laws that protect and benefit workers today is the work of the unions in the past and present. So although a worker may be the reason an owner is making more money, he does not deserve any greater salary? I am sure this is a subject that we will never agree on, kind of like UTAH and BYU fans can never agree on anything.
Agree to disagree Deb. At least we have the Jazz as a uniting factor.
JRN you you rock!! I totally agree with everything you said, WELL SPOKEN SIR… WELL SPOKEN.
@JRN5150 “let them eat cake” That’s what YOU’re saying????
No he’saying if you can’t make ends meet witht the company your witht then find another that will treat you better. Simple, we’re free to chose for a reason.
No he’s saying if you can’t make enough at you job to buy bread… then you should eat cake instead.
Wow those posts got too ling to read.
Greg Miller recently stated that they could put the money they spend on the Jazz into almost any other business project and make a better return. He went on to state that they run the team as a way to give back to the community.
Unions are good to keep workers from getting screwed. Basketball players are not getting screwed. Most of the owners are getting screwed. Hence a lockout (as opposed to a strike).
If you belonged to a union and you pushed and pushed for more money to the point where the company you worked for was losing money, what do you suppose would eventually happen to the company and your job?
At some point the players will need to confront the reality and give up their sense of entitlement.
Unions help balance the power of the wealthy owners, but a Union that gets too greedy is just as bad as management that gets too greedy. And in the case of the NBA, the balance is upset in favor of the players union and needs to shift back more to the owners. I’m a little surprised that French Dude doesn’t see this as I regard him as a generally smart guy.
I am sure that un-unionized workers can still afford food for their families. But I guess I could be interpreted that way. Hopefully French Dude does not put me to the guillotine. In all seriousness, unions have positive effects on the middle and lower classes yet hurt the overall economy. Free enterprise economic systems rely on the success of business owners and giant corporations. It is the upper middle class and upper class that re-invest profit into the stock market and keep the country running. They also pay the most taxes and other government fees. Justifying the taking of money from business owners for employees that are lucky to have a job is pointless and logically unsound. With people out there that are jobless and would do just about anything to be able to support their families where do union workers get off thinking they deserve something special? They should be fired and replaced with workers who would be more than happy to collect money every two weeks no matter how much is written on the check. Unfortunately, that is not a possibility most of the time because of job training and prior experience requirements. Unions serve little purpose today and do not help the country as a whole but individuals. So yes Thor: let the union members eat their cake. But they might have picket until cake is negotiated into their wages.
KCJones like the ninja turtles KCJones? I loved that show as a kid, Ok I still do…lol
You and JRN are studs and I love that French Dude although generally smart is getting taken to school on this one. I love the fact that there are some likeminded people on here. I agree with you both 100%… Good insight from both of you, I really liked what you both had to say.
Spoken like a member of the “bourgeois”. I’ll have you know that some of us that work for a living invest in the stock market as well. For the most part your statement is just ignorant. And for god’s sake don’t think I’m arguing that the NBA players deserve more money. But in this country it’s the work of the unions in the past that has gotten us to a point where workers are not exploited mercilessly… and that time is not that far in the past. You are naive when you say that unions do not help this country… OH and by the way I have a degree in Economics.
I agree with whoever said onions are the devil. Oh wait, they said “unions”. Never mind, I lost interest
You sound like a Bolshevik yourself Thor. Are you saying that Larry Miller didnt work for a living? Are you saying Bill Gates doesn’t work for a living? Are you saying that John D. Rockefeller didnt work for a living? Those men weren’t born into money you know. Let’s look at Mr. Larry Miller for an example. He was born into a very poor family. He first became a parts manager at a car dealership and saved up until he could afford to buy his own. He then continued to accumulate dealerships until he built a multi-billion dollar empire. All while he worked 16 hour days until he was medically unable to work. I didn’t say that Unions didn’t help our country. Because of them we are able to escape disasters such as the Triangle-Shirtwaist fire. But Unions serve little purpose in 2011. Government regulations secure rights and benefits that laborers deserve. That is what unions did in the early 20th century and now it is no longer needed. They served their purpose and are now obsolete.
@JRN5150 If by Bolshevik, you mean someone trying overthrow the Russian Provisional Government in Oct of 1917… I don’t think that applies.
@Tacorev Is that you Rosana Dana Dana?????
Why don’t you research what the Bolsheviks were and their political agenda and get back to me on that. It fits like a glove.
@French dude, some people getting on to you on this site, haha. Funny and naive can be insults when delivered or taken in a negative context.
No, in fact i’m not very smart, i’m a stupid worker, not a creator, and @JRN if i does not put you to the guillotine it was just because i was sleeping…….
But @KC, if you look at what i said at 3:32 pm, “unions are just a tool to have decent life if they are used correctly”, CORRECTLY is the important word of the sentence, so i think i see the difference between a good balance and too greedy……..
@Gerald, yes funny, i had great time last night, but if we have to do that for the entire year, we are going to need backups
@Jake, no i’m not “taken to school” on that, different country, different mentality, i’m not agree with you, and will never be, but it’s not really a problem, i can sleep very well in that situation, in fact i always sleep very well…….
to end the story, i’m not especially on the side of players, maybe you didn’t understand that, i’m on the side of people who united their strenght to defend their right, because like a great man named VOLTAIRE, said once, “i don’t agree with what you say, but i will fight until the end for you to have the right to say that”
one other big difference i see between you and me, you seems to be very proud to be americans, and me, i just don’t care to be french, pure random, i don’t see pride in that, i think it’s weird, but like i said before, different country, different mentality, no problem in that…….
oh and @Taco, i agree on that, Onions are the devil
GET ME OUT OF UTAH… I swear the only reason I stay is for the Jazz the rest of you Children of Zion are totally nuts.
Unions are necessarily.
If you enjoy you’re weekends, thank a union.
If you enjoy competitive field pay, thank a union.
If you like having health insurance, thank a union
If you lose your job and get unemployment, thank a union.
If you like the 8 hour workday, thank a union.
If your a women and you don’t get fired for getting pregnant, thank a union.
If you get injured at work and don’t get fried, thank a union
If you agree with child labor laws, thank a union.
Workers Comp? Thank a union.
If you enjoy working in safe conditions, thank a union.
Oh yeah… and what was that one Union demand… oh that’s right, Public Schooling!
Yeah… the devil is with the working masses standing up for their quality of life. Yeah.
We should start a “no onion” union
The point could be argued back and forth, but DAVE801 be my guest leave this state, the wacky zion folk are no more crazy then you…Thank Union for everything is your answer. I have never worked for someone else, when I don’t work i don’t get paid so I make sure to take care of myself so I can not have to rely on others or unemployment, I wouldn’t fire someone for being pregnant or hurt I work a 4 hour day if I want I work a 12 hour day if I want so I don’t care about the 8 hour work schedule, I make what I’m worth working for myself, I don’t get as high of paying job that I can and then work as little as possible or work just enough to keep my job, and since the working masses need someone else to provide for them an opportunity to make a living I would say you are proving my point for me. You’re in the wrong state obviously we Utahans, people of Zion don’t like unions so take it elsewhere bub. And Tacorev I’ll join your “no union” union any day and unite people for good reasons. Give me a break Dave we were talking about the crap that can come from unions and the NBA players trying to gain control to what? Get paid more? Like they need that. You must be an Obama lover too.
By the way thanks to everyone one for chiming in, regardless of your beliefs I still appreciate your input even if its not the way I see things. I know everyone has a reason for thinking the way that they do, I like the way that Larry Miller went about business and what he has done for this state. He was guy that broke out of the working class and chased his dreams. He has created created jobs, help build a community, given us sports and entertainment, set an amazing example and he showswhat kind of person in a community we should all strive to be like. I know some would say he needed to spend more time with the kids and worry about being a father and I’m not opening this up for discussion or criticism about Larry’s personal life at all. I am simply pointing out all of the GOOD he has done and and he is a great example of why I have the opinions that I do. I’m not saying I am as capable as he or anything like that but I like the way he went about business and life. He wasn’t a union guy, he wasn’t political guy, he wasn’t someone that waited for anyone else for anything, if he didn’t like something he would do something about it, if he wanted something done he’d get it done, he wouldn’t take from others to create. He was a fair guy and when you deal with fair people like he was there isn’t any need to have unions, or picket for your rights because those are things he would be concerned about for your behalf as part of the deal. It would need to work for everyone in order for a deal to be done, and if someone said Larry you screwed me he would make it right and change things so they felt that he did the right thing and fixed whatever was wrong. he was a guy that loved Utah just like he said and he loved to create, and we all have benefited from his efforts and dreams that he achieved. Guys like Larry miller are the backbone to this country that make it possible for anyone to even creat a union to begin with, and I don’t think its fair to say that unions are the only reason that we have things like a safe working environment. JRN said it well which is that government regulates our rights and safety now and pointed out that the use of unions anymore in 2011 is not needed. I don’t know all the answers and maybe there is many reasons for unions today but we were started this conversation becasue of the NBA and the players union and how they say they aren’t going to crack and I get upset with that (I know not all players are that way) I hate it when those who have amazing lives today like the players that have money and fans/fame want to bite the hand that feeds them and spit in the face of the owners who risk so much and not only create the players job and fortune but also all the extra people that surround the sport… It goes so much further then just people working at the arena, it stretches to so many opportunities and jobs and entertainment and fun that it can’t even be measured and the players don’t care about all that, or at least some of them don’t. The players want more money and thats that. 22 of the nba teams are losing a lot of money and when you have owners of teams losing less money missing a season of basketball, then it shows that the owners have no incentive to continue to run their teams at financial loss. The NHL went through this and the players finally folded because they realized that they were fighting with their revenue source and they had to find a winning situation for everyone which meant lower costs for owners. Thats the kind of union that is of the devil, the one that doesn’t care if it works for all involved they only care about their side of things which in this situation is really dumb because they are hurting themselves very badly. It took 6 years for the 98 lockout to recover and this is looking far worse. This is why unions are no longer a good thing today it gives people the power to fight even when its not right. Larry would have never given anyone a reason to fight, they would have all worked together to find a solution. Something Fisher is not capable.
@dave801
Your thank a Union speech doesn’t even make sense. I think everyone on here can agree peacefully that Unions had their place in time. As for now everything you mentioned is run by government agencies. So having a government agency hanging over a business and a union as well seems over kill. I have friends in Utah that work for the IFA. They have to pay union fees, they have to work so many hours to get a higher pay and first call. People have a long up hill battle to make decent money. don’t even get me started on the health care side… and guess what that is a NATIONAL union. so everywhere people have to deal with it.
I also think you need to do some more research 801 on your union speech. Public school really started to be pushed in the early part of the 1800’s in the country especially in the Northern States. By 1830 90% of the north was literate. Partly because they wanted their kids to be able to read the bible and write. Schooling went into effect as the industrial revolution happened and households turned from producers to consumers. Kids have less to do at home so parents wanted them to become educated. The south didn’t see a rise in public schooling until the Civil War was well under way and Jefferson Davis gave the golden ticket to school teachers (they were not drafted) so the amount of schooling from young kids to collages increased dramatically. Unions actually take away from competitive pay now a days… go look at the auto industry. GM is doing so well with it… oh wait. We can all see that Union did do something good for society. But that doesn’t mean it is always the best thing for society. For example… we all drive cars right? and henry ford quasi invented the automobile, well made it popular with the Module “T” ford. that was the best car you could buy. so should we still drive that today? no one for a second would choose that car over an modern vehicle. Everything evolves as time goes on. The economy is based on productivity… and people striking (which happened everywhere in france when i visited…) just down right brings the economy down and frankly makes them look rather lazy.
@Deb
Im sorry you have to work… oh wait everyone’s wife i know has to work. it would be great if they didn’t have to but unions wouldn’t send all the moms back home. Single income families are becoming almost extinct. what company does your husband work for? if he doesn’t get a retirement plan through work he can set up a IRA fund himself and contribute the same percentage if he was having one. In fact i would recommend that so in 30 years he doesn’t have to keep working for the same company… that apparently is from 1850.
@Bryant, maybe it’s just your system which is wrong, because in Europe, no one have to pay for Unions if he don’t want, you pay if you are part of it, and you don’t have to be part of it if you don’t want……. and the big problem in France is not Union, but the few number of worker in Union, only 8%, the fewest in Europe, and probably fewer than USA, in comparison with Sweden, Finland and Denmark, great country to live and to work, with 71, 71 and 68%
You might be on to something with our Union System being screwed up French Dude. It seriously is just a thorn in the side of America. Sweden is a Socialist country so I can see h if I am not Mistaken
Hit the submit Button before I finished. Cant find the edit button. Too tired to care. Nevermind.
Sweden socialist, maybe maybe not, like every european country it change at every election, like in France, sometimes socialists, sometimes not, it depends on the mood before the vote…….. but every year Sweden is at the of the list of the democratic index, so most democratic country in the world, and the girls, yummy……..
I can scarcely believe the idiotic douchebaggery that has been displayed against French Dude. Did people really try to make this about not liking France just because they disagreed with his point of view. Here’s strength in numbers for you: The owners have billions and have now locked out the players. Everybody needs to stop being stupid. There is no “right” and “wrong” in this labor situation, but being ignorant and abusive toward someone of another culture is always wrong.
@jimmy
actually French dude did start the mud clinging by calling out our dislike for unions and treating us like silly americans… maybe you should read all of the posts.
@french dude
I agree that unions could be better else were and our system either needs to go away or a serious overhaul
i had to, Bryant, when you start by “union is evil”, and it wasn’t you by the way, but when someone start by “union is evil”, i had to call him “silly”, and how nice i am, i just call him “naive”…… because it’s more complicated that just evil, it’s not because it seems that there is some abuse in your country that you can push every type of union in the garbage……. that is clearly silly
French Dude………….Your name disqualifies you for any right to mock anyone else. ESPECIALLY the Constitution of the United States. You are french because of us. If it wasn’t for the Constitution of America, there would be no France. Usually I agree with what you say, but I wont stay quiet if I feel like you are taking jabs (innocent or not) at The USA.
if i am French because of you, i clearly have reasons to be angry against you, i prefer British for the Football, Belgian for the Beer or Swedish for the Girls….
I was going to go into a whole other thing with the Sweden being socialist when I hit submit. It is irrelevant now. But just to clarify so nobody gets mad it was not negative toward socialism. It was going to be an assessment of cultural psychology and government acceptance based on regional history. Pretty much a Socialism works there but probably wouldn’t here. Capitalism works here but might not work there type of thing. Can’t remember how I was going to tie Unions into it though. I had quite a good nap though…
This is definitely an unwinnable argument for both sides. There is a culture gap between some of us here and French dude. He might not see what Unions do here in terms of negative effects. I am sure that I have know clue what goes on with unions and their influence in Europe.
French Dude, Deb, Thor, no hard feelings from this guy.
like i said before, different country, different mentality, we can talk, we had talk, no hard feelings, i’m still cool, like always, and i still haven’t wash my beard, i like to find some food in it when i’m a little hungry