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Love or Hate Former Jazz Players?
Posted by: Danny Hansen on September 9th, 2010
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.
The year after Malone and Stockton left, a not very talented Jazz roster shocked teams with a 42-40 record. That roster included many interesting and likable players. One of my favorites was Carlos Arroyo. I liked how he used his ball skills to get to the basket despite his lack of quickness. Flash forward to 2005. Carlos and the Jazz had gone through a messy divorce, leading the Jazz to trade Carlos Arroyo to the Detroit Pistons for Elden Campbell and a pick. He was unhappy with his lack of playing time and Jerry Sloan was unhappy with his effort. In the same season Arroyo had gone from a team with one of the league’s worst records to a team that would appear to the Finals later that year. To me it didn’t seem fair that he can whine and pout, and then be able to compete for a long playoff run with the Pistons, while we in Utah waited for the Draft Lottery. As the Pistons faced the Spurs in the Finals, I did something I have never done before, and will probably never do again. I was cheering for the Spurs. I hated Carlos Arroyo. I wanted him to lose.
It got me thinking about how quickly my opinion of Carlos Arroyo had changed. It was only one year and he had gone from one of my favorites to my least favorite. So what had changed? Well most obvious is that he no longer plays for my favorite team. Do Jazz fans hate all former players who have left? What is it that makes us boo or cheer for our former favorites when they return to ESA? Do we still love any players on other teams? Let’s break it down.
How they left?
I think a lot of how we feel about former Jazzmen on other teams is how they left the Jazz. If a player leaves with a lot of controversy and a messy breakup that alienates fans, you can almost bet that Jazz fans will hate them. We respect quality traits in our players, and loyalty is high on that list. If we feel they abandoned the Jazz then we feel they have abandoned us. This would also involve players who turned down more from the Jazz for less money elsewhere. Also include in this group players who have spoken poorly of Utah and the Jazz after they left. Former players with messy exits from Utah include Carlos Arroyo, Shandon Anderson, Bryon Russell, Donyell Marshall, Scott Padgett, Derek Fisher, and even Karl Malone to some extent.
How did they do after they left?
There is much evidence to show that players just don’t perform after they leave the Jazz. Howard Eisley, Shandon Anderson, Bryon Russell, Greg Ostertag, Mike Brown, Jeff Malone, and others never had any real impact with other teams like they had with the Jazz. It makes it a little easier to like those players since they didn’t succeed without us. You never want to be the stepping stool to something better. It is like the ex-girlfriend who get too hot for you. And as Jazz fans we feel we are hot enough for our hot girlfriends. Though few players have done better after leaving the Jazz, there are those who have had success. Bobby Hansen was a Finals hero for the Bulls. Mo Williams went from 3rd string to All-Star. Derek Fisher seems to never miss when he plays the Jazz, and has won 2 championships since leaving. Does their success make us hate them more?
Where did they go?
Karl Malone’s exit from the Jazz wouldn’t have been such a firestorm if he had gone to another team. That’s fact. Show me a Jazz fan who says they don’t hate the Lakers and I will show you somebody who is a liar and not a Jazz fan. Had Karl gone out east to the Pistons would it had been so controversial? Absolutely not. Derek Fisher is in this category too. Can you imagine the increased hate there would be for Carlos Boozer if he was now a Laker and not a Bull? I think as long as you leave the Jazz for any team out East or a worse team in the West, Jazz fans will handle it better.
Were they any good for the Jazz?
It would be easy to hate Ostertag after he went to Sacramento. He had been a lifer with the Jazz and he left for a contender. However, most of us were so happy that Tag was gone, that he was actually became more likable with the Kings. (But then he came back! Why?!) Jarron Collins couldn’t jump over a dollar bill for the Jazz. His departure was insignificant. His next year with the Suns didn’t phase Jazz fans either. Major players like Karl Malone and even contributors like Derek Fisher will draw more hate from fans because they are players of consequence.
2010 Chicago Bulls
Next season the Chicago Bulls are going to change their name to the Chicago JazzBulls. Well, at least they should. 25% of their active roster will have played significant minutes for the Jazz last season. Boozer, Korver, and Brewer all signed with the Bulls during Free Agency. How do Jazz fans feel about it? For me, the fact that they are out East, makes them more likable than if they were division rivals. We traded Brewer away and found a replacement for Korver before Free Agency, so you can’t blame them for leaving. Boozer’s entire time in Utah was full of turmoil, so you can expect Jazz fans to not happily follow his career. It will be interesting to see the reception they get at ESA. Also can Jazz fans blame Wesley Matthews for the enormous contract he received? I can’t.
So who do we hate and who do we love?
Replies: 25
Views: 1610
25 Responses
I agree with your theory. It all depends on HOW they left. Boozer a least left with some class. And we cant blame Matthews. My dad hated Karl when he left. Then he showed that he can no longer play and screwed the Lakers up so that make my dad like Karl again. Korver is still a loved player. He still holds his charities here in Utah.
Quick Side note: Looking on ESPN rumors. It said Matthews was suprised by his offer. I wanted to leave a comment saying “Well, No Shi* Sherlock” but I didnt. Thought it was funny though.
I hated Boozer when he played here, I am SO glad he’s Chicago’s problem now. We can’t blame Matthews for anything, we didn’t try to keep him. I don’t have hard feelings about all the players that came and went in the transitional years, why hate on Danny Manning? What Karl did was stupid, it was frustrating at the time but it didn’t work out, all it did was cap off his great career obvious mistake.
I will always be saddened by the departure of Wesley Matthews. I love his hard nosed style, and his humble personality. He works hard on every possession up and down the floor. He obviously did the right thing by taking the Blazers offer, as did the Jazz, by having the common sense not to match the front loaded contract. I will continue to cheer for Matthews except for when he plays the Jazz. I hope the fans don’t boo him when he returns in a Portland jersy to ESA next season. If anything, they should give him a nice round of applause.
I will be cheering against Carlos Boozer. I’ve always questioned his character. He just doesn’t come across as a sincere person, and I didn’t like all the controversey he created while he was here.
I don’t boo Derek Fisher, but I do think he was less then forthright about his reasons for leaving. I think he had his own agenda, and the Jazz didn’t fit into it. I do think he’s a good guy at heart though, and I like is toughness out on the court.
For some reason, Malone going to the Lakers didn’t bother me. I think it probably was because it was quite clear that the team couldn’t really move forward, and rebuild, until Karl left. The first round playoff exits were beginning to build up, and with Stockton leaving as well, it just seemed like the right time for a change.
I think Danny Manning falls in the category of How did they do after they left. He pretty much came here to die, and did nothing afterwards, so we still like him. Same goes for Armon Gilliam
@kelton.. Carlos boozer was a complete waste of 68 mil.. why would you say he left with clas.. who cares if he left with class im glad he left. he sure as hell didnt play with class in the playoffs. when bigger badder men came he ducked and ran, and do u really believe he is in a better situation with rose than with dwill. he was pissed that he wasnt the man. and spent of those six years injured or trying to leave. where is the class in that. i hope he does the same i chi town, dwill over rose anyday… oh and when ppl leave utah more times than not its proven that they were products of mr sloan, who still doesnt get enough credit. shame on da nba… there are always the bells and mo wills who actually have game.. then there is the other 90% who well, lets just say they miss mr sloan when they are gone
would guys still like deron williams if he left
cause i would still like him
@Marcus. I never said anything about him playing with class. I never said he’s better in Chicago. I never said anything about Boozers game. All I said was rather than up and leaving us bone dry he gave us a TE which we used to get Jefferson.
I love Wesley Matthews. He was an experiment of Jerry’s that went well. He’s a great, modest player who was our undrafted miracle. He’s moved on, and while I’ll be cheering him on, I’ll still boo the rest of the Blazers.
The departure of Boozer, while he was a great talent on the team, doesn’t hurt me so badly. He was cancer to the morale. He wasn’t worth the misery for his talent. Korver was a fan favorite, so therefore I think his leaving is sort of considered deception. I have mixed feelings. I like him, but I’m angered that he didn’t try harder to stay here. Brewer, while I was outraged at his departure from the Jazz, I’m not so worried about him now. I like the guy, but he’s not our man anymore, so good luck to him. I’d be much, much more frustrated with the Chicago Jazz if they were more of a threat, but they’re not, so whatever.
Karl was on his last line, trying to bring a ring home to his family. I’m not angered with him at all. He played his heart out in Utah, and while we gave many valliant efforts (and possibly had our victory stolen from us), we had no ring to give him. It was his last year. He wanted it. So he moved. I’m upset that he never got one, because he deserved it.
I can’t stand Fisher. In his commentary, he’d slyly give examples of states with better doctors, and he’d always say New York. I expected him in a Knicks jersey. I think he had motives behind his given excuse. I think he wanted to be a Laker.
While I may like or dislike these other players, my main concern is the Jazz. I’ll be there to cheer them on, through thick or thin.
It depends on their class before and after. If they show hard work and class and do what is needed of them on the team. Like Brewer, Korver, and Matthews. Then you always wish them the best luck as long as they continue working hard and not taking and cheap shortcuts. Boozer I just couldn’t respect. Had a good game and because of it I don’t hate him. He did at times make us better. But I’ll never respect him. I do wish him the best in the future. Just not anytime soon. If he were to win next year I’d be pretty bitter. But be happy for Korver and Brewer.
It’s players like DeShawn Stevenson whose attitude and class fell short and I love to see him fail. I think he’s really the only player other then Donyell Marshall I ever hoped for failure. Besides… Derek Fisher.
Derek Fisher went to the Lakers. No matter what you do. That’s a no no. I didn’t care about Karl cause he deserved a ring. He really did and I actually hoped for his success behind my cheering for LA to lose. It was mixed.
Wes Matthews is a stud and I will never forget his hard work and dedication. He plays on Portland wish is awful cause I gotta cheer against his team. But I’d surely cheer for him to win a ring as long as we’re not still in the picture.
Matthews said he was surprised by the offer the Blazers gave him. I call BS on that. He knew of the offer Sap got from them and the Blazers dirty play. He knew what he was doing along with his agent. Because other players who thrived in the Jazz system failed when they left it will be interesting to see what happens with Wes..
Malone: with no more Stockton and having been in Utah for 18 years, I think he did the right thing for himself. He didn’t hang out longer to chase Kareem because without his mom anymore, the record wouldn’t mean that much. I hate the fact he chose the Lakers, but after he didn’t mention them at all in his great Hall of Fame speech, I’m ok with that. Malone was a blessing to the Jazz.
Wes: his agent was the one who told O’Connor he’d only accept the full mid level. Stupid mistake? Probably not, he got big money and will probably figure out his way there too. Could have treated the Jazz better, though, but I wouldn’t boo him, it was his agent for the most part.
Boozer: he did awesome things to the Jazz, in spite of it all. And I think his next three years will be the best of his career. He wants money, he wants to win and he wants to prove he can be one of the dominant players in the league. Even his defense improved last year. We may not admire him for lots of reasons, but he gave us success and was kind enough to help a sign and trade for which he got nothing more! Thanks to him we got Big Al now, and I’ll forever be thankful.
I was bummed at the departure of Ronnie B at the end of last season I was quite happy to hear that he signed with Chicago it will be quite interesting with Korver, Brewer, and that other Bull (Boozer) when they come to the ESA to play the Jazz hoping that Jazz fans will cheer for them and not boo.
But way happy for Matthews for signing with Portland.
I’m still trying to figure out why Jazz fans don’t have a problem with Chicago. I don’t hate anyone for leaving the Jazz because they fulfilled their contract, but Chicago honestly I can’t stand them!! Im really looking to see another Jazz, Bulls finals because I know who will win that series.
I could never hate Malone even though he went to the hated Lakers. I hate the Lakers but I couldn’t hate Malone. He gave us 18 great memorable years.
I hate Fisher. I too wouldn’t boo him but I can’t stand him. He is two faced. He is personified by the media as a saint and he isn’t. He is a dirty player. I don’t know if he lied or not but I don’t like him.
I don’t feel anything towards Boozer. I will continue to cheer for Korver and Brewer.
I am torn about Matthews. I didn’t like his comments about how the Jazz didn’t make an offer when KOC said they did. He seemed a little whiny after he signed with Portland.
btw I heard an interview with KOC on KFAN and he said he literally had to beg John Paxon for the trade exception so I don’t think Boozer had much to do with it.
Danny,
This is a great post. A couple of reasons of you gave about why fans feel like they do are my reasons. It depends on how they did after they left and what they said about the Jazz after they left and also how they left. I was really sad when both Karl Malone and Raja Bell left the Jazz, but I don’t remember either of them bad-mouthing the Jazz after they left. With Malone, I think time heals that wound and I too was happy he did not mention the Lakers in the HOF speech. I have no ill fellings toward Brewer, Boozer or Korver. I am not sure about Matthews, I was sad to see him go, but I thought there was some mention of him complaining about the Jazz not making him an offer, but I think they did.
Andrew,
I am a little confused by you comment about Korver “I think his leaving is sort of considered deception. I have mixed feelings. I like him, but I’m angered that he didn’t try harder to stay here.” I just wonder what he could have done to try harder to stay here and where you see the deception. I don’t believe the Jazz even made him an offer.
Diana I think KOC’s comments on KFAN were in a joking manner. He has a good relationship with Paxon and that’s why he struck a deal. I agree though Booze had nothing to do with it, if he did I guarantee he would have been asking for a sixth year on his deal.
Danny great post. It’s fun to read stuff like this and kind of dig in the past. I don’t care who leaves Utah, but once they leave I boo against them. That’s the whole thing about cheering against the opposition. While I do get angry at some people’s comments about Utah afterwards, I still only cheer against them and don’t want them to succeed because they are not in a Jazz uni.
Also to all those who feel Malone couldn’t play his last season, I think people need to remember the knee injury. Also he was playing with a drama ridden Shaq and Kobe. I bet you anything right now that Karl Malone is in good enough shape he could come play and put up 15-20 points per game still. Also Malone was probably the reason Shaq and Kobe didn’t kill each other and were good enough to at least make the Finals. Check out this article.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/halloffame10/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=100812-malone
Here is the link to the article in ESPN the magazine on Wesley Matthews. If you have ESPN Insider you can access it. http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=5546852
Question for everybody out there. Who is your least favorite former Jazz player? I am going to go with Greg Foster. Never liked him here. Didn’t like him after.
Least favotie: Mark Jackson. He is as dumb as it gets and to this day cheers against the Jazz when he calls Jazz games. Every game he’s commenting, I turn off the sound.
By far Mark Jackson, not only from the way he shows his bias against the Jazz now, but also the rumors from the past that he was devisive in the locker room and hastened John Stockton’s retirement. The fact that he was only here a year says something too.
I seriously only read like 10 or 15 words of your post and I got the drift instantly… GOOD WORK! I love all the old Jazz Men regardless of some of the out of wanting a ring comments I make that are kind of rediculous, I still love every player that has been in a Jazz uniform! let’s not forget about Dee brown because we both know the last memory we have of him is that neck injury he had before he got wheeled of in a wheelchair, but I do love all my boys! actually we can leave Ostertag out of the equation hahaha something about that corny ass flattop I don’t know what it is hahahaha j/p! hey check out the new videos. I’m going to post this one of Bryon Russell in two seconds! add a comment if you would like…. PEACE
Jason I agree with you 100% loosing Mathews is killing me over here!!! I know the management was just trying to make a statement by saying take him, but honestly the Jazz F***** up by not taking him back! Yeah you saved a little money Miller, but he works hard! they will regret it later on trust me…. He will take Roy’s position, or at least be a major starter within a few months watch haha- then come back and comment and be like damn bro you were right! hahaha it really breaks my heat to see Wes gone!
Any player, like Malone or Fish, going to the HATED Lakers is going to get booed, when they return to our arena, especially when they leave under “fishy” circumstances.
When any team trades or signs a thug, who is a good player, he automatically becomes beloved. “He’s a thug, but he is OUR thug!”
With the exception of Fish, Jerry’s system makes players better, than they perform for other coaches. An exception, Fisher isn’t a traditional point guard and plays much better in the triangle, than he did with the Jazz. Bobby Hansen really didn’t play any better, he was just in the right spot at the right time.
It will be interesting to watch Booze, Ronnie and KK with the Jazz East. I would guess Boozer plays about the same, Ronnie worse and Kyle better. It will be fun to watch, and I doubt they generate many boos when they come to town.
Jazzaholic
I don’t hate Jazz players unless they leave on a bad note. Boozer still left on a bad note. He was sorry only to see if he could get a big payday and or keep the masses from marching to his house with pitchforks and torchs. Malone went to the hated lakers, but Utah wasnt going to do anything and it let us rebuild. He played hard for us and gave us his all, no complaints here. Brewer had no say in his trade, we did nothing to keep Korver as far as I know, Westly put too much faith in his agent. Yes he got paid, but could he or would he have stayed for less? We will never know. I don’t hate him for it. Ostertag was a doof, Foster, and shandon Anderson left on sour notes. I dislike them. I hated Mark Jackson before heplayed for Utah and even more after. I don’t know why hes still an analyst, hes one of the worst ones to listen to on TV.
To me if you play hard while your here and either you or the Jazz organization decide its time for you to go elsewhere then fine. If you were a blowhard while you were here, a troublemaker, or badmouth us after you leave then your gonna be hated.
and yes I hate fisher.
I will never ever hate Wes. He is a great kid and the only reason why he isn’t back in Utah is solely because of his agent. He expressed his desire to stay and be loyal to us and the Jazz gave his agent a contract and set up a meeting….but his agent never told Wes about it and put the meetings off, waiting for a bigger offer to come along so the agent could get a bigger payday. When Wes signed with Portland he talked about how confused he was the Jazz hadn’t approached him with an offer….when we had, his agent had simply lied to him.(This really angers me and I think the NBA should do something about situations like this. A players wishes were PURPOSELY ignored by the agent for his own gain. Wes wanted to be here, the Jazz wanted him here. He should be here)
But anyway. I don’t blame Ronnie for not coming back. I wish greatly he had, but who can blame him?
Korver. I dunno. Maybe he didn’t feel wanted? It was really the first chance he had to choose where he wanted to go. Maybe he never wanted to be here in the first place.
Boozer….*sigh* If I read he tore his ACL after writing this article, I’d laugh. Money over loyalty doesn’t fly with me at all. He had one priority and that was money. he didn’t stop and say “Wow, I’m the player I am today because of this team…I want to take less money and continue growing to be the best” he just took the Bulls offer and waited for the Jazz to sweeten it.
Raja has shown loyalty in the end. He gave KOBE the middle finger to say “I’m gunna go back to Utah”
Charles Barkley changed my mind about Karl Malone leaving. I was always mad until this whole LeTravel James summer fanfare. He was talking about how James would never be “The Guy” and how he really respected Karl Malone. Karl had dedicated his whole life to Utah and was just shy of a ring. John had left and he knew it was time for the team to move on. He wanted one last chance to win a ring and went to L.A to be “The Guy”. He wasn’t really piggybacking. He went there to try and lead the team as the best player and his injury caused them to fail in retrospect. I realized this and my betrayal for Karl was gone. he didn’t pull a LeBron, he just tried one last shot to not only win a ring but to also be the leader in getting it.
I also laugh when I see teams always trying to unload DeShawn Stevenson(like what Dallas tried for Al Jefferson)
Can you believe some people actually called him the NEXT M.J?
There aren’t to many players that I hold anything against but Fisher is def on top of that list. I think part of the reason why is because we all feel duped by his nice guy bull!@#$%. His exit showed a complete lack of integrity. (better cancer doctors. . .psh. . .the Huntsman Cancer Institute is one of the leading cancer hospitals in the world!)
I give credit to Boozer because he has never acted like he liked it here nor did he ever pretend he would stay. He was upfront so although I hated him on the Jazz I love him on the Bulls. . .he can be a cancer to them now!
I will always cheer for Korver because he is a good guy and has done and will continue to do amazing things for Utahans.
The person I hated the most for leaving was Raja Bell. . . mostly because I loved him so much and then he just up and left
All is forgiven now though!
In closing it really only seems to sting for the first year or so after wards. (except with Fisher)