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Back-up Point Guard Still a Problem for Jazz
Posted by: James Seaman on July 25th, 2010
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.I wish Jerry Sloan had a DVR that could pause actual Jazz games. Just as I can pause live TV to take a call, use the bathroom, or grab a cold one from the fridge, Sloan would love to stop the action while Deron Williams catches his breath. Unfortunately, no such real-life DVR exits, meaning that when D-Will steps off the court, the game goes on without him. This causes serious problems for the Jazz because they don’t have a back-up point guard who can adequately hold down the fort while the team’s best player takes a rest.
Deron Williams has played without a solid back-up in every season of his career, save one—the 2006-07 season when the now despised Derek Fisher answered the bell. Heck, before Williams, the Jazz hadn’t even had a decent starting point guard since John Stockton retired. Yes, Carlos Arroyo did perform well in 2003-04, but then the well mysteriously dried up. Arroyo’s very game seemed to evaporate and he became like a desert mirage, Jazz fans seeing a franchise point guard where none existed. Thankfully D-Will came along to save us from the Milt Palacio-Keith McLeod platoon that followed Arroyo. Williams has played with a tremendous amount of pressure, however, knowing he does not have a solid back-up to spot him.
While the Jazz certainly need to add more depth at center and shooting guard, Jerry Sloan can shuffle guys into these positions. Al Jefferson can play center if necessary while CJ Miles can suit up at the two-spot. No such luxury exists at point guard. Yes, Andrei Kirilenko did run the offense for a spell during Game Two of Utah’s 2007 playoff series against Golden State, but no one wants to see that again. Truthfully, the Jazz need to address the back-up point guard situation.
Deron Williams averages 37 minutes per game. This means the back-up must step into his place for 11 minutes every night—almost a full quarter of the game. The point guard handles the ball on every possession and will almost always guard the man who starts the opponent’s offense. The back-up point guard can’t hide on the floor and simply buy time while the starter rests. The fate of the team lies in his hands for almost one-fourth of the game every night.
It appears as though the Jazz will once again turn this responsibility over to Ronnie Price with Sundiata Gaines acting as an insurance policy behind Price. Fans—myself included—like Price because he plays hard and has mad hops (Dad, that means he can jump). We get excited when he sticks the occasional 3. We want to root for a guy who played his college ball locally, and we remember the first time we saw him—Price’s absolutely filthy posterization of Carlos Boozer early in the 06-07 campaign when Price still played for Sacramento.
A sober look at Ronnie Price’s game, however, leaves us wanting much. First and foremost, he does not shoot the basketball well. Price shoots a hair under 40% from the field for his career and hit less than 29% of his 3-point attempts a season ago. When the offense stalls and the shot clock dips under five seconds, sometimes you need a guy to bail you out with a big jumper. Howard Eisely—the model we must use to measure all present and future back-up point guards in Utah—became a very reliable shooter. He could get you a bucket if the occasion called for it. More importantly, however, Eisley ran the offense with precision. He did not over-dribble, and he didn’t throw up bad shots. He held the leads that Stockton gave him and often added to them. That is the standard for a back-up point guard in Jerry Sloan’s system. We don’t need an energy guy, a leaper, or a fireplug. We need a custodian, a caretaker who will watch after the lead (or keep the deficit manageable) while Deron Williams catches his breath. Ronnie Price isn’t that guy, nor will he become that guy. Price, age 27, has now played five years in the league. If he had the potential to become an excellent back-up point guard, we’d have seen it by now.
That leaves Sundiata Gaines. The Georgia grad won our hearts when he hit one of the most dramatic shots in franchise history. (By the way, I’d fallen asleep on the couch late in that Cleveland game—I was living in the Central Time Zone, making it an hour later for me. When Gaines hit the shot, the noise from the TV, plus my cell phone erupting with a billion texts saying “Dude, did you see that!?,” jarred me awake, but it took a few minutes to figure out what had just happened). Unfortunately, you can’t base a player’s value on one dramatic shot. Gaines hit less than 27% of his 3-point attempts for the season. He did shoot 46% from the field, much higher than Price. However, Gaines’ struggles from the free throw line reveal something disturbing about his game—the guy, despite making 38 of 82 field goals last year (not great but not terrible) does not shoot well. Not only did Gaines miss half of his 46 free throw attempts last year, he shot under 60% from the charity stripe in college. We’re talking about a four-year point guard, playing in the SEC, who basically started every game of his career. He had the ball in his hands during crunch time. Undoubtedly, coaches worked with Gaines on his free throw shooting. It never got better. This doesn’t bode well for a player who loves going to the basket.
A New York City legend who attended Archbishop Malloy High School in Jamaica, Queens, Gaines’ youth gives him more margin for error than Price. If he wants to become Deron Williams’ back-up, Gaines will have to learn patience, persistence, and precision. Watching Gaines in the summer league, he seems like the guy who always wants to attack the hoop. While they look impressive at first glance, these drives to the basket don’t necessarily fit within Utah’s offensive structure.
At this point, we know Ronnie Price well enough to understand that he’s not the ideal back-up point guard. Gaines has a year to prove he can do the job before the Jazz go hunting for another Eric Maynor in the draft. It’s either that or invent a real-life DVR device that allows Sloan to pause the game while Williams rests.
Replies: 37
Views: 7145
37 Responses
As I wrote yesterday (but the post moved to the second page now), we need a polyvalent back-up at the 1-2 right now. We have a 10-15 MPG deficit to cover at these positions. It can also be solved by taking a 4-5, letting AK and CJ sliding to the 3 and 2 respectively, but I don’t like this option since it doesn’t creat any back-up PG and limits time for CJ at his best position, the 3.
James, it’s 11h49 here in France … so you’d rather go to bed !
For those who didn’t catch it yesterday … today is the U17 women’s final opposing France and USA. You can watch it free at 5:30 pm in France (9:30 am in Utah), that’s reaaly great basketball:
http://www.basketfrance.com/_edf/page_a.php?d=campagnes&p=liveu17
the model back-up / polyvalent guy for me is Luke Ridnour. Unfortunately he is now signed elsewhere …
James–couldn’t agree more. I’ve written a few Jazzbots post about this very topic. Ronnie Price would be a better third point guard, or more specifically, a deep bench combo guard. They need someone to give Deron some more rest. There may be a decent back-up out there, even a Jazz retread (McLeod, Palacio, Vaughn), a younger option (Kruger, Jaycee Carroll), or an inexpensive free agent out there. Will Bynum of the Pistons would be a solid back-up, but the price tag might be too high.
Kruger, Jayce Carrol. who are they?? we might as well keep price. i my opinion there are plenty of decent back up pgs avaiable, but but no good or great back up pgs avaiable. withall the moves we made last year, we messed up by trading that asset, Eric Maynor.
If we have to wait next draft, as we have now the same PG combination than last year, I suggest to have our eyes on Antoine Diot. He missed the draft this year because of back problems. He is an experimented, while young, PG that could slide easily to the SG because he has a great shot. He would give the polyvalence and the playing time needed.
I feel like your looking at all the negatives with Price. 40% shooting for career? Thats great! Now I do admit that he has other poor skills with his 3 point shooting and such but Ronnie Price is a great back up PG. I would go on more but I dont want to make a long comment.
Price as a fine bench player is all well and good, his energy and speed often bring us out of a slump, indeed Williams mentioned last year he learned a lot from how ronnie pushed the ball up the court. The problem is he is no where near able to run the offence and pass as well as Williams, and as such plays break down and discontinuity within the team apperas. We need a replacement PG who can find the player not dunk the ball…sadly Gaines, Price nor Maynor are that man. As mentioned above a player like Ridnour would fit far better within the system
Price will stay the 2nd option… i like Gaines, but seriously, a PG who attack the ring so often need to be at least at 80% on FT…. i hope he will pass the next 3 month to work that point with Hayward….
Shannon brow??
Shannon brown I meant
@Austin…the thing I like about Brown is that he’s big enough to slide over and play the 2 if you need him to. I don’t like that the Jazz go with 3 pure point guards on their roster. Three guys who can only play the point is limiting. Now, could someone like Shannon Brown run the offense for one quarter a game, or would he just be a bigger version of Ronnie Price? The thing about Brown is that he’s been with four teams in four years…I wonder how he’d do with a stable home and the structure of Jerry Sloan’s offense.
@Kelton…40% field goal shooting is not great. If that were his 3-point percentage, sure. But overall field goal %? 40 is not good.
@Henri…I looked up Diot. Interesting. Looks like a talented guy, except the scouting report says he chucks up too many perimeter shots and constantly plays in overdrive. That scares me. Of course, I have never actually seen the guy play as you probably have.
I hope this doesn’t become a precurser to talk about the need to trade Price. What he does bring to the court is valuable. He just can’t run the offense that well.
The biggest problem I see is that we need a backup that can run the offense. Who says it needs to be a point guard? I know that traditionally (and usually) PGs run the show on the offensive end. Couldn’t a 2 or dare I say 3 just as easily run the offense as well while Deron is resting? Mix things up a bit and maybe add a different dynamic to the approach of the game.
Now I don’t have an in-depth understanding of the game. I’m not saying its a great idea either, I just like thinking outside the box sometimes. Any thoughts?
I agree with this post, Ronnie Price is a decent back up PG, but he really hasnt improved his ability to run the offense, his shooting, or his ball handling. I cant remember what we got for the Eric Maynor trade, but it wasn’t enough, he is playing awesome for OKC right now.
i WILL SAY IT AGAIN, jASON wILLIAMS, aLLEN iVERSON..JUST TO NAME A FEW
@Ben…I certainly appreciate the thought, but the Jazz don’t really have anyone at the 2 or 3 who could run the offense. Like I mentioned, Kirilenko has actually done it before but he’s just too erratic. Beyond that, I don’t see any of Utah’s current swingmen who we’d want running the point (though Gordon Hayward could possibly become that type of player, someday). In terms of a Price trade, I don’t think it’s a possibility because he doesn’t have much trade value.
@Drew…in exchange for Maynor, we got OKC to take Harpring’s contract off our hands. So we didn’t receive any players, but we did get out of the luxury tax. It was an unfortunate reality of the Jazz’s economic situation because I think Maynor fits the profile of a potentially steady back-up point guard.
@Brandon…I’d actually love to have Jason Williams running the team while D-Will rests. He burned off all his youthful frivolity years ago and now strikes me as a somewhat steady hand. Also, he would immediately become the team’s leader in tattoos per square inch of body surface. Iverson is one of my favorite players of all time, but I don’t know that he would fit here. He is a born scorer and I just don’t know that you can take that shoot-first impulse out of him.
I am tired of seeing the closing minutes of the half go to a man who is ignoring wide open players to jack up a missed shot. Over and over again, its gotten very old. Great post, couldnt agree more.
I liked how Price held up the team in the third quarter during the playoffs. I remember him (and the other bench members) keeping the point difference about the same as D-Will took some rest. Having said that, I don’t feel so hot about his shooting. At least he doesn’t shoot that much.
Which brings me to Gaines. I don’t know what the stats show, but I always feel that he shoots TOO much. Seems like his first priority is to shoot, and when that doesn’t work, he looks to pass (which is frequently too late)
I’d love a better back-up pg for the Jazz, but I think Price did a decent job last year, and if he could improve a bit, he’ll be OK.
Fish played mostly at 2, with DWil, and was a poor PG option, but a great locker room presence. That’s why he plays better with the HATED Lakers, they don’t use a traditional PG.
Maynor/Harpring saved the Jazz about $7.5m net in luxury tax, but didn’t put them out of the tax. Even after the Brewer salary dump, the Jazz still paid tax.
Price brings better defense and athleticism, but has difficultly getting the Jazz into the offense and is an erratic shooter. Ronnie does have an expiring contract this year, making trades easier.
Yada runs the offense very well, but is a poor free throw shooter, and not great from the 3. He needs some attitude readjustment, after hitting “the Shot”, and some Horny FT tutoring (along with Fes). His minutes have been so spotty, that more consistent PT might reap big benefits.
Hayward is an intriguing PG option down the road, but it’s too much to expect in his rookie year, even with his high basketball IQ. Could he guard the fast little guards? DWil can’t, Price and Gains do better on D. What a mismatch, if he can play PG.
Howard was good before he left, but when he came back, he was ultra selfish, dribbling the clock out, to take a “forced” shot, to pad his STATs, during his contract year.
CJ isn’t bad. His D on the water bugs is as good, or poor, as DWil’s, but he’s a real handful for the other PG on offense.
For the money, I doubt the Jazz can find much better than Price and Yada. Because they are in the tax, any player costs them double their salary.
Best guess, status quo on PG, with a cheap big, if such and animal exists, to fill the roster.
Jazzaholic
Please excuse my un-knowledgeable self. I don’t know a lot about Bell or where he fits on the court, but it seems like he could work as a back-up to Williams…?
And honestly, it sounds like your looking for another D-Will to back up D-Will. D-Wills are hard to come by and with where the jazz stand in the NBA’s “team priority” I don’t see us getting another one until we get the first NBA Draft Pick. If Bell is better at a different position, we may just have to stick with Price and Gaines. Especially with the luxury tax situation Jazzaholic pointed out.
The Jazz did NOT get out of the luxury tax last year. They were never out of the luxury tax and paid luxury tax. This year they are already $7m into the tax, the 7th highest tax payer in the league, with roster spots still open.
Any free agent they sign will cost double their salary, so don’t expect any high priced signings. It just doesn’t make any sense.
Bynum is restricted and you know how teams have to overpay to land a RFA.
Are Law or the Flipper any better? Hummm. More expensive, but better?
White Chocolate isn’t moving from sunny Florida, even if he retires.
It’s also hard to see how the Jazz could structure a worthwhile PG trade, until the trade deadline.
Sending Walt out to beat the bushes for an undrafted “Wesley”, in a PG body, might turn up something, but I doubt it.
I just can’t see much change coming at the PG position, but we’ve been pleasantly surprised by Kevin before.
Jazzaholic
I too think we are making too much of this. I like the combo of Price and Gaines. They both have great individual skill. Ronnie has wonderful D and good midrange shooting.
He does a good job at holding off further scoring from other teams bench while adding a few points.
Gaines also has great D and is a great penetrator. He has shown poise under pressure and can shoot the 3.
I would like to see him a little more unselfish with the ball but I think they will and are working on that with him.
During the Laker series we had our leads IN L.A with Price coming off the bench.
So with some more work I think we have a nice fit for two different situations in a game. Ronnie to minimize opponent scoring and Gaines to create bench scoring. I would still like to have Eric Maynor with us to be perfectly honest.
Using Hayward as a PG option should not even be considered. What he has shown he should be trained to become the next AK. His height,shooting,rebounding ability to steal and block the ball too should be nurtured to grow and become an amazing all around player. Imagine if Hayward could become another AK?
@Jazzaholic…thanks for the insight. You’re right about the Jazz currently having limited options, and I don’t really expect them to address the back-up point guard need this year. But if they are to become a legitimate title contender in the next 3 years, something will have to be done.
@Colby…I appreciate the comments. I still have to disagree…the numbers show that Price doesn’t shoot the ball well (under 40% for his career), and despite that bomb against Cleveland, Gaines is not a good 3-point shooter (less than 27% last year). I completely agree with you on the bit about wishing we still had Maynor, though I recognize the Jazz had to make that move to dump Harpring’s contract.
@Alex…I don’t know if Bell is a good enough ball-handler to play point guard, even in a limited role. You are right that it’s not reasonable to expect a D-Will clone as your back-up; but I do think it’s possible to find a steady hand so you’re not going “Oh crap, what’s gonna happen in these 5 minutes while Williams is out of the game?”
Im sorry but your just stupid man.. Price does exactly what most point gaurds do around the leauge.. thats why the Jazz have kept him and will keep him..he does his job.. Name any off the bench point gaurd that can be paid as little as price is with the same outcome…
You dont know what your talking about, leave the thinking for the Jazz ok
Hey Cassidy, there are plenty of ways to make your point without resorting to insults. I appreciate your comments about the Jazz, but I don’t appreciate being called stupid.
The point isn’t to compare Price to every other bench point guard in the league, as you say…rather, it’s to look at an area of need for the Jazz and suggest that they’ll have to fill that need in order to become a more complete team. In our own division, Ty Lawson and Eric Maynor (the back-up point guards for Denver and OKC) can do more for their squads than Price will do for the Jazz.
I agree! I love Ronnie. I was very excited when he joined the Jazz. I LOVE him as a 3rd stringer but not our first option behind Deron. I really don’t know who is out there though.
Also is anyone else’s comments shown in reverse order. (most recent comment first?…. It makes them hard to read.
Yeah, too bad Sloan has nothing to pause actual Jazz games with. Oh wait, what you’re describing is called a “timeout”, and he uses them all the time. But because Einstein died before he could complete his explorations in time altering, it’s true that Deron can’t play the entire game.
It’s odd that in an article about backup point guards, you don’t use the word “assist” or “pass” a single time. “First and foremost” you point out Price’s poor shooting, and second…Well you never really moved past shooting percentages for either player.
The most important trait to have while playing PG for the Jazz is being able to run the offense. I agree that Price isn’t the best at doing this, but at least he brings intangibles that make up for it(sometimes).
Sundiata Gaines impressed me before he ever made that game winning shot against Cleveland. He came in and ran the offense when Deron wasn’t an option and Price was unsuccessful. He had a couple of great assists to Boozer through the pick and roll, the staple of Jazz offense.
Neither of these backups are going to be as efficient as Deron is, but nobody’s backup PG is. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of backup point guards that are definitely better than Price or Gaines, and none of them are on the Lakers, who just won back-to-back titles, so the notion of the Jazz needing a better point guard to contend is false. They could improve at other positions and contend just as well.
Also, Eric Maynor was awful on the Jazz and I was glad to see him go.
If someone were to invent a “real-life” DVR, I would hope they could come up with more creative purposes for it. However, if one were to be invented, you could rewind time to reevaluate your article.
Derrick Rose shot under 27% from the 3 point line last season. That’s awful. No wonder he can’t get a job anywhere as a backup point guard, he’s worse than Price and Gaines.
So by the same token, I guess in your eyes Kyle Korver was the best player in the NBA last season, since he shot a blistering 54% from the 3 point line. Our best backup point guard option signed with another team.
When I look at the backup point guard situation for the Jazz, I’m thankful that it’s in the top 5 of the NBA. Maybe we should focus our efforts on a center that can catch a pass and finish around the rim, while defending adequately on the other side of the floor.
I know I sounded really negative, but I liked a lot of the things in your article. Like the stuff about the “real life” DVR. How did you come up with that? Genius. Here’s a movie I think you should look into, I know you would love it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_%28film%29
Watch out, there’s spoilers in the plot synopsis.
Shannon Brown is not an option; once the Jazz signed Raja Bell, Shannon Brown & Roger Mason’s agent announced that the Jazz would not be able to pick up either player.
I think the Jazz brass have a idea of what the team still needs; they’re just waiting for the right player and the right opportunity.
@Thomas James Adams…you’re right that I should have given more consideration to assists and passing. With that in mind, consider that Price averaged 5.5 assists per 36 minutes of court time last year. I’ll give you ten back-up point guards who averaged more than 5.5 assists per 36 minutes last year: Ty Lawson, Sebastian Telfair, Steve Blake, Luke Ridnour, Marcus Williams, Sergio Rodriquez, Kyle Lowry, Anthony Carter, Eric Maynor, and Chris Duhon (while Duhon started for the Knicks, he will certainly be a back-up this year in Orlando). I only looked at a partial list, so there may be others.
To your point about Eric Maynor being awful last year, consider that he averaged 13.3 points and 8 assists per 36 minutes in his time with the Jazz…that’s compared to 11.4 and 5.5 for Price. Maynor started two road games for the Jazz in November when both Williams and Price were out. Despite only being in the league for a couple weeks at that point, Maynor had 13 points and 11 assists in a win over Philly. The following night, he started in Cleveland and scored 24 points as the short-handed Jazz lost by just 4. I think that’s pretty impressive. I understand the Jazz had to trade Maynor to unload Harpring’s contract, but to say Maynor was awful is simply not true.
One other point about Price, he committed 4.9 fouls per 36 minutes of court time last year. No other back up point guard is even close (most are below 3.5). So that doesn’t bode well for Price’s defense.
As for Gaines, his numbers are better than Price’s, but as others have mentioned in their comments, he often seems too eager to drive the ball to the basket himself. That said, he was only a rookie so I’d be more willing to see if he can develop. Price has been in the league long enough that I think we know what we’re going to get from him.
@Bryan Sylva…Again, my focus on shooting percentage may have been overstated. Clearly, Rose is a great point guard while Korver wouldn’t be. However, the bigger point there is that if these guys (Price and Gaines) can’t shoot the ball well, it’s going to be tough for them to be perimeter players in the NBA. I use the Eisley example because in his best years as Stockton’s back-up, he shot over 40% from 3.
I definitely appreciate the comments.
I think you need to take postseason into consideration when evaluating Price. Price had 7.5 assists per 48 minutes in the playoffs this year. That’s 13th overall, and is the most by a backup PG. He ranks above Ty Lawson, Eric Maynor, and Luke Ridnour.
I’m glad you are now using assists per 36 minutes as your sole indication of point guard skill instead of shooting percentage.
Fouls per 36 minutes is a really obscure stat to throw out there. Considering Price only played 13 minutes a game, that’s somewhere between 1 and 2 fouls per game. That’s a small “price” to pay for the added defensive intensity he brings.
You’re absolutely right in that we all know what we’re going to get from Price. He’s a hit or miss spark off the bench that’s not great at running the offense, but brings other intangibles to the game.
It’s not really fair comparing Gaines’ stats to other backup point guards, because he’s 3rd string, and hasn’t had a lot of playing time.
The reason I’m willing to stick with Price and Gaines is that they’re both gritty, hard-nosed players that do the dirty work on offense AND defense. The reason I didn’t like Maynor was that he didn’t seem that tough. His constant floaters were an insult to masculinity.
I would like to see Kevin Kruger or Jaycee Carroll given a shot for PG#3. Kruger knows the system, is a coach’s kid, shot 92% from the line last year for the Flash and outperformed Maynor in Orlando last year. He also dropped 47 in a DLeague game. Carroll had a couple of good runs with the Celtics and Knicks summer league teams. He’s a bit short as is Kruger but he was interviewed on New York TV (it was on NBA TV as well) at half-time of the Knicks last summer league game because he was playing well. He’s had a couple of years overseas so is no rube.
@Thomas James Adams…not using assists per 36 minutes as the sole measuring stick…just using it as a source of data to gauge passing which I believe is what you asked for. But you’re right if you’re implying that some contributions can’t be measured by statistics. Ultimately, that is why I’d like to turn away from Price…as a general rule, I just don’t think the offense performs well when he’s in the game. You are right that he’s hit or miss…I would prefer a steady hand. At any rate, I appreciate your thoughts and I guess we’ll just agree to disagree.
@Mike…interesting thoughts.
No James you are not stupid. But cassidy is very rude..
I think Price is a great player… for someone as a backup that plays 10-15 minutes a game,
but if he was ever to play a full game, I would be very worried. I think the best case scenario would be that the Jazz get a Starter PG in a backup. What would be even better would be if we got a Starter Combo-Guard to backup both Williams and Bell.
I would love Eddie House or Earl Watson,
but I think House might go back to Boston and Watson will probably cost too much.
I think a lot of you are forgetting the fact that there is more to a player than offense. You can’t always outscore the opponent. That was Boozer’s philosophy and it was painfully evident.
Ronnie Price brings huge D and the fire the Jazz need when things become lackadaisical. Ronnie doesn’t need to shoot a high percentage. He needs to keep the gap from narrowing (when Jazz being ahead) by getting the ball to the other scorers.
I’m not going to use stats, because they are swayed by too many variables, mostly playing time. Although I agree with mostly what you’re saying, I think Ronnie Price makes a perfect backup PG.
Thank you, KOC and the Miller family for a off season of pure gold!
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