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What to do with Big Al?
Posted by: jason michael crannell on August 10th, 2012
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.The Jazz recently offered Paul Millsap the best possible deal they could under the CBA, in order to resign him. They were fully aware that Paul (and his agent) wouldn’t accept the deal, because he stands to make much more money next summer in free agency. But, it served as a significant gesture on Utah’s part to let Paul know that they want to retain his services for the future, and how much they appreciate his contributions to the team, and organization.
What does this have to do with Big Al?
The Jazz have a bunch of young talent (including front court players like Favors, Kanter, and Evans) that will be seeking bigger paydays in the near future. The organization really won’t have enough money, or available playing time, to keep both Paul and Al happy beyond this coming season. I think the Jazz revealed which way they are leaning, by the recent developments concerning Millsap. It appears, at least at this point, that Jefferson will be the odd man out. So what should the Jazz do with Big Al? Do they just hold on to him, let his contract come off the books next summer, allow him to sign elsewhere, and use that huge chunk of cap space to pursue the best available free agents targets? It’s a gamble, because most top notch players probably won’t want to come to SLC, even if the Jazz have a bunch of cash to flash. The other possibility is that the Jazz deal Jefferson sometime between now and the trade deadline. But, when I look up and down this roster, I see great depth at all positions, and I scratch my head trying to figure out exactly what the Jazz would be best served to acquire in a deal for Al. After much deliberation, I think the Jazz would be best served to trade Jefferson to a struggling franchise in exchange for a “bad” contract, and future draft picks (without protections). By acquiring high lottery picks, the Jazz will get a shot at obtaining a potential future star (since they aren’t going to pull off a deal for an established all-star). The only way your going to get such a high pick, is if you pay the price by taking a bad contract off a teams hands (did someone just say Tyrus Thomas in Charlotte?).
If I was the Jazz GM, I would be scouring franchises at the bottom of the standings, who might like the idea of adding a quality veteran like Jefferson, while at the same time unloading a bad contract, even if that might mean parting with what potentially could be a very high lottery pick in the process. This is the ONLY way you have a chance to end up with a player the caliber of Kevin Durant.
Replies: 52
Views: 1016
52 Responses
The only position I’m not sold on is PG. I’d like a good young point guard to learn off Tinsley
Paul didnt take the extension and i know koc was a big believer that if a player doesnt want to be here then get rid of them. So paul might be the odd man out since he wont sign to extension. I dont know why we are talking about getting more bigs though even though i like the players mentioned in some posts blair and thomas are both studs. I would much rather go for a sf or sg. Or trade for a young pg to take over in a few years. Like lillard or marshal
You guys have to remember that he might simply want a re-negotiated contract that can only be completed as an entirely new deal at the end of his current deal. He MAY not be saying that he is ready to leave, but maybe the extension process under the new CBA limits the terms. I don’t know that for sure, but it is a possibility. As far as what to do with big Al, why do Jazz fans feel like something has to be done? No one has demanded a trade, no one has quit on us (except Raja), and Paul and Al play different positions. I know Jazz fans feel like one of them must be traded, but they don’t. There’s no reason we need to rehash this conversation every other day on here.
Big Al plays Center, Millsap plays PF. And i’m sorry, but Kanter is not developed enough for me to justify trading the best offensive Center we’ve ever had (20 & 10 a night).
@Kevin – Amen to your Big Al comments.
Every Jazz fan knows that Favors is the future of the team at the PF slot. If Millsap can be our first player off the bench, he is awesome. If he can’t, he is holding the team back.
@Disco – I’ve always really liked Mo Williams, though I agree a younger point guard prospect would be a nice addition.
@Trevor – Paul didn’t take the deal because he knows he can get a better contract next summer (either from the Jazz, or another team).
@Jared – I see Favors more as a center then a power forward, though I feel he has proven he can hold down either spot. Many teams are going with smaller lineups now. There are few true centers.
@Kevin – It’s not a matter of feeling the need to get rid of Paul or Al. The Jazz just won’t have enough cap room to resign both, and be able to pay all the other young talent on the roster in the future. I agree Kanter has a very long way to go in his development.
Even with the cap room situation, that still doesn’t mean we need to panic and trade anyone. ESPECIALLY now with LA getting Howard without giving up Gasol. We need to have a solid second unit coming in with some decent size cause that will be the only way our frontcourt can tip the scales against LA. I say we keep Al and Millsap and wait and see what happens. If it comes to that, I say whichever position Favors plays, we have to trade the other. So if he plays Center, we have to trade Millsap. But then how long before everyone says we have to trade Favors because Kanter starts to improve?
This is basic mathematics. Al Jefferson base is 16M starting, and Millsap rejected 8M so lets just say 9M starting. That is 25M per year over the next 4 years. Cap is 58M. 58 – 25 = 33M. Core four on rookie contracts is about 15M, so basically the Jazz have to sign the other 8 players with 18M. Oh ya and those rookie contracts are up in 2 years. So Jazz are going ti have to extended their franchise PF and Hayward and an additional 8 players with about 16M. The extensions alone will be about 14 of thar 16, basically Jazz have sign 8 players with 2M??!!! You need to be a wizard to make that happen and not a GM.
Hey Kevin how about because as long as he is on the team taking up minutes away from someone who plays defense we do not win a championship? Is that a good enough reason? If he accepted a bench role fine but will he? NO!! Will he accept 8 mil a year on an extension? NO! So why are we allowing both of those guys to walk?
Once again we have just let trades happen with out us doing anything! You are telling me no team has called and said hey you have a lot of big men we need one what do we need to do to get them? The only way they are not traded is because KOC values them way to highly.
Here is what a Alex Kennedy said in a convo today. Can anyone see the problem with how the Jazz are doing things?
Alex Kennedy
The Magic didn’t want to be a borderline playoff team. Rather than bringing in veterans who would keep the team competitive and land the eighth seed in the East, Orlando is going to throw their young guys out there and let them develop. They’re probably going to be a bad team for a few years, but they’re fine with that. They’ll get a couple lottery picks in a row and then have cap space in 2014. Remember, Rob Hennigan comes from the Oklahoma City Thunder organization, where they sucked their way to Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook and James Harden. He wants to do something similar in Orlando. In the short-term, it’s frustrating for Magic fans. However, it may pay off in a few years if they make the right moves. The Magic will have their lottery picks to use in addition to all of the picks they acquired in this trade. Throw in the cap room and the young players they landed like Afflalo, Harkless, Vucevic and Eyenga and Orlando may have a brighter future than people think.
One thing to keep in mind about the offer from the Houston Rockets: It wasn’t as attractive as reports have indicated. The Rockets weren’t willing to give up all of the picks and prospects in addition to taking back Orlando’s bad contracts. It was one or the other. If Houston was giving away their prospects, they weren’t taking back bad contracts. If they were taking back bad contracts, they weren’t giving away their prospects. Without a long-term commitment from Dwight Howard, the Rockets weren’t willing to potentially ruin their future by giving away all of their prospects and taking back ugly deals. Houston wasn’t going to put themselves in a position where if Howard left after the season, they’d be stuck with bad contracts and have zero young players to build around. In recent months, reports have made it sound like Houston’s offer was the perfect deal for Orlando, but the Rockets were never going to give up everything and take back all of Orlando’s garbage.
Jefferson doesn’t have a future with the Jazz. We won’t just let him walk for nothing because he is a top 5 center in the NBA. Right now he is the Best player on the Jazz and he will make a big payday when next offseason teams miss out on superstars and are still looking for a star to sell tickets.
@Disco THANKYOU! I totally agree, Tinsley has so much to offer and would be such a good mentor @ PG. I think next year is our PG year if we don’t trade Al and Sap. And yes I think they are both gone this year by trade or we just get nothing. I would be ok with a situation like moving Kanter or Burkes in a package with Sap for B.Knight and Drummond.
@Jazzed on it and @disco. We need to dump Al ASAP cuz we cannot win a first round series with him, let alone a championship. We need future picks and cap space to either draft the PG of the future or sign the PG of the future. Keeping Al at 16M over the next 4 years completely destroys that possibility. Keeping Millsap also at 10M, would kill the franchise. Only two pf the core four could be resigned, are 3rd overall pick would get DNPs, wed get no additional picks, and we would have to use like 8M to fill the roster of 8 spots— no way we could sign a FA PG thats worth anything.
You look up and down the roster and can’t see a place to acquire someone new? I can. Point Guard.
Well if we trade Al we will need a serious upgrade in the frontcourt. Kanter cant cut it as the 3rd big yet. Our frontcourt could go from first to worst in one year. There is a big disparity when you remove your best frontcourt player and replace him with some Jeremy Evans type player. Favors, Millsap, Kanter, and Evans isnt intimidating in the least.
Hey Dallan, who plays better defense that he’s taking minutes away from?
Do you seriously think that Kanter was able to truly show his consistent defensive abilities in his 100 minutes played all season? Also, Al’s offensive potency is far superior to Kanter’s right now. So unless Kanter’s defense is absolutely phenomenal, then your logic is a fairy tale and not reality.
Favors played better defense, but he can EASILY take minutes at PF and be every bit as effective.
Also Dallan, your stupid responses are ALWAYS based off your image of the future. You don’t know what’s going to happen, so stop acting like it already has and is therefore fact! Live in 2012 with the rest of us and base your opinions/arguments off of speculation instead of pretending it’s already occured. You don’t know if Millsap will accept a bench role, you don’t know if he and Al will just walk. So your argument is weak as anyone else’s.
@KEVIN Really? All my stats I show of Al and why he needs to go are from the future? I thought they were from last year.
I do know that EVERY time they stuck Kanter in to stop someone he did. Lamarcus Aldridge, Andrew Bynum, even Tim Duncan in the playoffs. He is very good at in the paint defense and is even better at P&R defense then your boy Al Jefferson. He actually knows how to defend it instead of Al who can say it to the media and then can not translate it into a game. During the playoffs he kept saying he knew what to do but then he gets into the game and it does not happen. So guess what? He either has a low basketball IQ, no heart, no hustle or more then possible all of the above.
You are right I do look towards the future. But how about you go look at all the posts that I have made and tell me which one has not been spot on when the time comes. Cause I always am saying things that this needs to change or we are in trouble and every says you are wrong and then guess what I was right. So you can say I am wrong cause I look ahead all you want but if the Jazz FO looked ahead a little better we would not be a middle of the road team that is barely going to be fighting to make the playoffs next year.
@JRN Evans is intimidating when you know that you can not just go into the paint cause he is going to block you. Look at what Ibaka causes teams to do because he is in the paint. You always talk about how Al took over the Phoenix game well ya wanna know what really changed that game? It was Favors coming in and getting 5 blocks in the 1st half. He destroyed Gortat and Gortat was never the same the rest of the game because he thought he was going to be blocked. You wanna know why the pathetic untalented Suns were in that game in the first place? Because Nash was DOMINATING Al on the P&R it was not till Favors came in the game and took over on the DEFENSIVE end that we had a chance in that game.
Al just takes a lot of shots (17.2 per game), so his 19 points appear to be a lot, but considering he only takes more shots than 8 players in the league (who are elite scorers–6 in the top 6 in scoring), Al’s 19 is pretty sorry actually, he is the 15 highest scorer. He doesnt get to the line, he plays horrible against the Lakers (29%) and Spurs, he cant guard the P&R (Nash, Parker, Ginobili, Westbrook, and Harden). Losing Al is not that bad, Id say its a good thing actually.
Howard 19.5M
Kobe 27.8M
Gasol 19M
Nash 8.9M
World Peace 7.2M
Blake 4M
Hill 3.5M
Goudelock, Sacre, Johnson-Odom 1.5M
TOTAL: 91.4
And Lakers still need to fill two more roster spots at least. 33M over the cap and 21M into the luxury tax. Pau Gasol 19M.
Lakers get:
Al, Bell, Watson,
Jazz get:
Gasol (and Blake if we had too or, since Lakers picks are tied up with Suns, Jazz 1st round picks become extra valuable)
Lakers clear 19-23M (maybe get some 1st round picks). Im clutching at straws.
Dallan the last thing I am going to do is go through and look at all of your ridiculous posts in one day. Fewer things would make my anxiety shoot through the roof.
Your stats are few and far between. More often than not, you pick and choose between stats that will defend your argument, while completely ignoring the game as a whole. Do you know so little about basketball that you can’t comprehend that some things don’t show up on a Stat sheet?
Defense wins Championships, but if Kanter can’t score on offense, we will not win. We do not have a player that will score 35 points when we need them to, so we have to have all 5 players on the team score some points. With Al in the game, we give up something on defense but we gain almost 20 ppg. Al certainly has his shortcomings, and I am okay with trading him. But I am not going to say that we just hand the reigns over to a guy that has yet to prove anything.
Do you realize that the Jazz can’t just win a title by getting rid of Al? All of your statements point to the fact that we can’t win with Al. So how does giving him up, instantly make us a contender? Is that all we need to do? Cause if not, then why don’t you ever talk about anything else, and why do you ALWAYS say we wont win with Al.
We wont win with Al in my opinion, because we are the UTAH JAZZ and not the LA LAKERS/HEAT/CELTICS. It doesn’t have as much to do with Al as you say it does.
Also, don’t act like you are just “looking ahead” as if you are just trying to maintain perspective. You “look ahead” as if everything you envision is a guarantee. THAT is what gets obnoxious.
@dallan Listen, just because you wear a jazz shirt and watch the games doesn’t make you an expert. I watched big Al and I watched Kanter. Can you really imagine how many games we would have won without jefferson last year?? You aren’t going to win many games averaging 70 points per night reguardless of how well you can guard the pick and roll. And sure Kanter did good when he was in there for 10 minutes a night, but do you really don’t think duncan, bynum, and the rest of the player he guarded weren’t going to get it together against a rookie??? NO rookie just steps in and owns people. Come on dude, I try to have respect for jazz fans, but when they run their mouth and base absolutely everything on what they saw from 10 minutes a game?? Kanter will be good, and I think he will be a starter for us eventually, but right now even though he does have some great plays he has just as many plays where he looks lost and a step behind the play. Al stepped up big last year, and he’ll be key in developing Kanter as long as he’s here. So if you care at all about winning, and about kanter really learning from a legit professional player then you’ll get why we don’t trade al!
@JRN, @KEVIN, @Zachary Kapp
Al (49.2%) is not even top-ten in FG% among Centers (Al is behind Chandler (67%), Howard, Pekovic, Bynum, McGee, Gortat, Monroe, Noah, Hibbert, Duncan). If Kanter took 17 shots, in his 2nd year as an NBA player, Kanter would average like 16 points, and get paid like 4M.
We need to remember, that ALL of Al’s numbers are inflated. Good check the stats on his ONLY five 30 point games (if he is an elite scorer, how come in 61 games started averaging 34 minutes per game, he only had five 30 point games), against the @Bobcats, Wizards, Cavs, GSW, Pistons!!! Hahaha. And his five lowest scoring games came against the Lakers, @Lakers, Clippers, @Mavs, @Blazers.
FIVE BEST (notice the minutes to points ratio against the worse teams in the league):
Versus Cavs
W 113-105; 37 minutes; 13/17; 30 points (1.2 : 1)
Versus Wizards
W 114-100; 31 minutes; 16/23; 34 points (.09 : 1)
Versus @Bobcats
W 99-93; 33 minutes; 11/19; 31 points (1.0 : 1)
Versus Pistons
W 105-90; 36 minutes; 14/18; 33 points (1.0 : 1)
Versus GSW
W104-98; 39 minutes; 13/18; 30 points (1.3 : 1)
Only one of those 30 point games came on the road; 4 games against Eastern conference teams; all 5 games against lottery teams in the top seven; 3 games against the 3 worse teams in the East (against 3 of the worst 4 teams in the league).
FIVE WORST (notice the minutes to points ratio against the better teams in the league):
Versus @Lakers
L 71-96; 25 minutes; 2/16; 4 points (6.2 : 1)
Versus Lakers
L 87-90; 43 minutes; 5/17; 11 points (3.9 : 1)
Versus Clippers
W 108-79; 26 minutes; 4/14; 10 points (2.6 : 1)
Versus @Mavs
L 96-102; 34 minutes; 4/12; 11 points (3.0 : 1)
Versus @Blazers
W 112-91; 29 minutes; 4-14; 11 points (2.6 : 1)
All 5 games against West teams; 3 games on the road; Jazz won two of the games despite Al not scoring a lot; 4 games against West playoff teams (the game against the Blazers was a must win late in the season and Al had a low scoring game).
Kanter’s double digit scoring games last REGULAR season (notice the minutes to points ratio against the better teams in the league, coincidently, teams that Al had his worst games against):
Versus Clippers (W)
22 minutes; 4/7 FG; 2-2 FT; 5 rebounds, ZERO turnovers; 10 points (2.2 : 1)
Versus @Mavs (L)
13 minutes; 5/8 FG; 2-2 FT; 7 rebounds; ZERO turnovers; 12 points (1.0 : 1)
Versus Lakers (W)
17 minutes; 5/9 FG; 0-0 FT; 6 rebounds; 1 turnover; 10 points (1.7 : 1)
Versus Heat (W)
16 minutes; 5/8 FG; 1-1 FT; 6 rebounds; ZERO turnovers; 11 points (1.4 : 1)
Versus @Lakers (W)
23 minutes; 6/7 FG; 5-7 FT!; 8 rebounds; 1 turnover; 17 points (1.3 : 1)
Versus @Portland (W)
17 minutes; 4/5 FG; 2-2 FT; 2 rebounds; 1 turnover; 10 points (1.7 : 1)
Versus Portland (W)
34 minutes; 4/8 FG; 4-7 FT!; 10 rebounds; 1 turnover; 12 point (2.8 : 1)
Of the 7 games, 5 were against playoff teams (@Portland was a must win), 1 was against the NBA champions, 2 were against the 1st or 2nd best center in the league.
In Al’s 5 DNPs from last year….
Philadelphia 99 @ Utah 102 W
Top performer: Favors 20 points, 11 rebounds, 1 block
Enes Kanter: 15 minutes, 2/3, 6 rebounds, 4 points
5 players in double figures; held opponents under 48.5% FG, 30.5% 3pt FG
Toronto 111 @ Utah 106 L (2OT; end of regulation score 76ers 90 – Jazz 90)
Top performer: Millsap 31 points, 11 rebounds, 2 assist, 1 steal, 1 block
Enes Kanter: 17 minutes, 2/4 FG, 1/2 FT, 3 rebounds, 5 points
5 players in double figures; held opponent under 45% FG, 35.5% 3pt FG
Portland 89 @ Utah 93 W
Top performer: Millsap 19 points, 15 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 steal, 2 blocks
Enes Kanter 21 minutes, 1/8 FG, 1/2 FT, 8 rebounds, 3 points
5 players in double figures; held opponents under 46.5% FG, 25% 3pt FG
GSW 92 @ Utah 99 W (OT)
Top performer: Favors 23 points, 17 rebounds, 2 assist, 1 steal, 1 block
Enes Kanter: 20 minutes, 2/7 FG, 13 rebounds, 4 points
5 players in double figures; held opponents under 41.5% FG, 24% 3pt FG
Utah 103 W @ Lakers 99
Top performer: Millsap 24 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assist, 5 steals, 2 blocks
Enes Kanter: 23 minutes, 6/7 FG, 5/7 FT, 8 rebounds, 17 points
6 players in double figures; held opponents under 47.5% FG, 20% 3pt FG
No team scored 100+ points in regulation. Jazz went 4 and 1 (Jazz lost in 2OT; they had a 3 point lead with 13 seconds remains, Caldaron hit a 24ft 3 pointer to tie). Jazz held opponents to an average of 45.8% FG and 27% 3pt FG; held opponents to 98 points per game (92.8 points per game in regulation). Yes the Defense. Losing Al will make the Jazz a championship team.
Conclusion:
Millsap is pretty damn good WITHOUT Al, as is the team’s defense. Clearly Millsap is greater than Al, and cheaper. If someone deserves 30 minutes it is Millsap. Al should be traded, if not, he should get no more than 20 minutes.
@Kevin Do you show stats? Do you show anything that proves that Al is great offensively? Lets see it. Everyone on here can talk crap but can never back it up with cold hard facts. JRN is the only one that tries to do that. Yes JRN I am giving you a compliment. You are right we do gain 19 points a game but guess what? It is on 17 shots just like Omar said. You are telling me if we spread out 17 shots to everyone else on the team that we would not get 19 points?? Just by the pure fact that Favors,Kanter,Hayward,Burks,Millsap all actually GET TO THE LINE in those 17 shots we would get 5-7 more FT attempts then Al gives us so that is more points from the line that we do not get from Al.
Also Kanter can score on offense. Maybe you do not know about basketball but when you get more minutes you get into a rhythm. When you get into that rhythm and know you are going to get minutes it is easier to play relaxed. How hard do you think it is for a 19 year old rookie to come into a game and not know if he is going to get 5 mins or 20 mins?? Do not say either that if he played better he would play more because we all know that is not true. No matter how good Favors,Burks or even Kanter played they would just get pulled out. Even if they were cutting the lead and brought us back into the game.
People always say we gave Favors a chance at the 1st of the year and he did not produce. Is that true?? Lets take a look shall we.
1st Game: Plays with Al gets 8 points 6 rebounds
2nd Game: Plays with Al gets 2 points 10 rebounds
3rd Game: Plays with Millsap gets 20 points and 11 rebounds.
So what is the problem here? You want to say no one can score so Al has to but guess what when Al was gone we scored just fine. In fact when Al was gone every one scored better and more efficiently. Huh imagine that!! When your offense is not based off of a heavy post Iso player and there can be movement we score easier. How do you explain that Kevin? Should our scoring have not dropped when Al was out? We scored 102 pts that game. So how do you explain that? Every time Al did not play we did not become the Bobcats and average 87 points a game. We scored just fine.
I love how you can say that I do not understand basketball but everything I see with my eyes is backed up by stats.
If we want a playoff team, we need trade him.
He´s a looser team C ’cause he dosen´t have a solid D. Why do u think Chandler’s game is so important to winning teams?? U remember Luc Longley??? Did u see today’s USA – Argentina game???
So sorry Big Al, but the Jazz don´t need your offensive game today.
Dallan, the cool thing about my statements, is I am not stating them as fact like you do, so I do not have to show stats to prove that i’m not blowing smoke. YOU always say things as if they are cold hard facts, and therefore you need to show the stats.
I am agreeing with many people on here that Al is not going to be the sole player to take us to the title, and therefore a trade should be considered. I am not however, saying that he is the reason we will never win. When you make such statements (which you always do) those are the statements that require proof. All I have mentioned, is that Al is better offensively than Kanter. If you need stats to prove that to you, then you either need to watch the games more closely, or spend 10 seconds googling it.
Oh geez you guys all don’t even see the argument here. No one ever said that al was the greatest thing to ever happen to the jazz. All we said is that you expect Kanter to walk on the court and be dwight howard his rookie year! We admit that al has crappy defense, but to just instantly trade him cause he’s not the greatest player in the league is acting like a child. I love the use of Luc Longley…cause jordan didn’t have anything to do with those rings, jordan and pippen would have won if they put an oompa loompa at center! And no one said that we’d rather trade jefferson than paul, clearly pauls a better fit for this team right now. And really honestly do you think with the log jam in the front court that koc hasn’t looked into trading him? Or would you rather have us pull an orlando and get scrubs and worthless picks?? If you get a guy that makes the team better then great pull the trigger on a deal. But if you just trade him to trade him thats nuts! He can teach a very young kanter a lot about post moves and especially now that we actually have shooters he can come in for some good offense when we need him too.
And Dallan, re read my posts with these eyes you speak of. Did I ever say Favors can’t produce? Tell me where I said that. Just in this thread alone, find where I said that. I said KANTER is the one who is weaker than Al offensively. It is very true what you said, that Kanter could be better with a more consistent role. I completely agree, and I like Kanter. Al isn’t even in my top 5 favorite players on this team, so I am not looking through a bias here.
I am telling you right now, we could trade Al for any number of other NBA players and we still will not win a title. There are so many more pieces that would have to fall into place. You act as though Al is the only thing holding us back from elite status.
@Omar,
I appreciate the stats you showed, and I am impressed by your post. I also agree completely with what you said. My beef here, is with Dallan the god who thinks he knows more than anyone because he puts forth stats that only show his jaded view of things.
@Kevin I was pointing out the mere fact that we can score without Al. You said we get 20 ppg from Al. I was showing you with our players we do not lose the 20 ppg we score just as much if not more this year because our young players are 1 year better.
What have I posted that is not a fact? I said IF Al accepts a bench role then we could win with him on the team. Will that happen though? NO! And guess where I am getting that from? People that spend more time around the team then you or I do. I am showing you stats that make what I say FACTS!! I did not say EVER that Kanter was so much better then Jefferson offensively but I did say that he would help fill the void. You do not think Kanter in 34 minutes could not get 10 points? Cause the. You only have to get another 9 points from someone else. You do not think Millsap,Burks,Hayward,Favors,Marvin,Mo,Foye,Evans can give us 9 more points then what we got from those positions last year??
@Zach we would have won plenty of games without Al. We won in L.A without Al and they had not lost at home for 17 games. We won that with Kanter getting 17 points on Bynum who you say Kanter can not beat. He also cause 3 turnovers on Bynum cause Bynum could not push him around. He can not beat Duncan? I watched him beat him twice in the playoffs in the paint where Al could only dream of getting in. That is twice when he never even got to play against Duncan.
@Dallan first off beating duncan a couple times in a series is not beating duncan. He better be able to get the better of him every now and then or you shouldn’t even be in the league. And I didn’t say Kanter sucks, I remember the laker game, in fact lets all take a break from debating and take a 30 second moment of happy silence to remember beating them…………I feel happier already. But kanter would not have been a force like that averaging 17 points a game. You seriously can’t expect kanter to just go out there and be an all star his rookie year or even the next couple. And like I said I’m fine trading big al, as long as we get someone who will really help us in return. But at this point I cant really see anyone who we would get for him that really makes us better. So why not let him teach kanter another year, and give us decent points when he’s in the game. Al is not the reason we don’t have a ring. Even if we trade al straight across for dwight we don’t have a ring. There are multiple pieces we still need to get in place, and some of them I think are just going to have to come with time.
We’re running in circles here cause I think we’re getting in too deep with the debate. (mostly my fault, I will admit.)
Let me simplify my case here: Al is not the best fit for our team for various reasons. However, in the NBA you do not find very many Centers who average 20 & 10. So yes Dallan, we certainly could make up his scoring between every other player on the team that you mentioned. My concern with what you are saying though, is GENERALLY a big man in the paint will score with more efficiency and consistency than perimeter players that you mentioned. Which is why I appreciated Omar’s post about him not being in the top Centers as far as FG% goes. Therefore, he validated his point with his stats.
Kanter most certainly has the ability to shut down Bynum and Duncan on the occasional night. However as a rookie, if he is playing 34 minutes per game I do not think those other stellar players wont adjust.
You also are saying Kanter stopped Duncan in the playoffs, but Favors is the one who kept providing the help D to shut Duncan down. Kanter played decently, but again it isn’t his defense I would be concerned with. It would be whether or not he could provide any offense on a consistent basis. He still makes rookie mistakes like bringing the ball down on an offensive rebound. Missing those fundamentals proves Zach’s point that he needs Big Al to help him learn the game. He’s only been playing basketball for 6 years mind you.
Dennis Rodman, the Hall of Famer, averaged 7 points per game, but he averaged 13 rebounds per game!! And played defense!. In Rodman’s 14 years, his highest points per game was 11 points; his highest rebounds 18 rebounds per game.
I think the mistake most people keep making is comparing Kanter to Hakim. Kanter will never be the 1st option offensively. BUT that is absolutely okay. Think of Kanter as Rodman: he is going to play great defense and hes going to rebound. And because of those rebounds, he will get a ton of easy baskets, so hell score just fine. And unlike Rodman, Kanter has range!! So imagine a bigger stronger Kanter, with a nice touch and range. That is why I am so frustrated that Al is still with the Jazz (and Watson and Bell). In 25 minutes Kanter will average 10 rebounds 10 points. With Al minutes, 34, Id say Kanter averages 15 rebounds and 12 points.
Big Al = $15m not $16m.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/utah-jazz-team-salary
A good bookmark to have.
There’s no rush to make a salary dump, because the Jazz would still be over the cap and they’re not paying luxury tax.
Something may come up before the Feb trade deadline. $15m is a pricey contract to trade. If not, the Jazz have his Bird Rights at the end of the year, if he want’s to sign with another team for a better deal, than that team can offer.
The Jazz can also let him test the market and agree on a lesser amount.
The worst thing is the Jazz gain $15m in cap space.
In the meantime, he’s close to All-Star status. So, let’s see how he plays.
Jazzaholic
Comparing Kanter to Rodman is actually a good idea. Rodman was huge for the bulls in a lot of categories and aspects that most ignore. So that is very true about Kanter. I think he will play a significant role with the team. I wish Corbin would play him about the same as Big Al, and split the minutes 50/50 this year, and then maybe look for a trade at that time. That gives Kanter the time to learn some good things from Al, and also to develop a bit more confidence.
I do not however, feel that we need to look to trade Al right now. I also don’t think O’Connor and Lindsey should be fleeced because they haven’t traded him. Sometimes fans assume that GM’s can just lift the phone off the hook and make a deal whenever they want. I guarantee O’Connor has been on the phone concerning Al, but I also am certain that no offer has been that great. Say what you will about Al being inneffective, but he played a major role on this team last season. The young guys can fill that role too, but there’s no rush to dump a guy that puts up 20 & 10 numbers.
@Zachary Al can not really get the better of Duncan. He has to just shoot 18 foot jumpers all night which the Spurs were willing to let him do. So should he not be in the league?
I do understand everyone concern in that we need someone to take some minutes at C so that Kanter does not have to play 34 minutes a night there. Every trade I have suggested has been with another C to take some minutes away from Kanter so he does not have to play the whole time there. But we are also forgetting if we lose him then Favors will start at C so that is 25-30 mins at the C position being used. But I agree we do need someone for our 5th big. So now since Houston lost out on Dwight how about we go to them.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=9mrsakl
Throw in a pick or two our way and we got a deal. We do take on Martin and his contract but I do not really care. We get Motiejunas and and if we get a pick or two as well that is what we need. But we have to have someone to get up to the contract level. They want room for Lamb to improve and they have PLENTY of forwards. They are going to have to give up some asset so we take him. Then if for some reason Kanter,Favors,Evans or even Millsap walks next year we have a very capable backup.
Minute distribution
PF: Millsap 30 mins, Montiejunas 18 mins
C: Favors 30 mins, Kanter 18 mins
Also with this trade we get a legit 7 footer. He is European but he is like Kanter. He is physical and not soft like Mr. Pau Gasol
All of you guys are getting to used to having the ball in the centers hand. The Jazz don’t need to run there offense through the big man look at the Thunder they hardly give it to there big man Perkins and Ibaka are in there for defense. The Jazz could get away with having Kanter come in and play 20 to 25 minutes with his role mainly to be the rebounder and to band around the other team. The Jazz got some scorers over the past month and I expect to see Hayward and Favors start scoring more too If Jazz got rid of Jefferson they would be just fine.
Most likely if the Jazz extend Al hell get a 7% increase which would be 1.05M increase, so it would be about 16M next year.
This year it doesn’t hurt use salary-wise, but, if we commit to Al, we are going to have to commit time AND money. So that will be 16M increasing over 4 years. One year into his contract, Favors and Hayward’s contract will be up. So thats when Al’s 16+M will really hurt us. And then two years into Al’s contract, Kanter and Burks will be up. That’s when Al’s 16+M totally kills the Jazz. And on top of that, by keeping Al and committing time to him, Kanter will be due up, and chances are hell be averaging like 13-15 minutes, so A) he wouldn’t have developed and B) Jazz would not have had a chance to properly evaluate him. And this is considering Al doesnt play well against playoff teams. And financially this doesnt take into account MIllsap 10M per year.
Its fundamental: If Al is not the future, then we need to develop and evaluate Kanter, the 3rd pick in the draft, otherwise its a total waste of a draft pick. Are the Jazz going to resign Favors, Hayward, Burks, and Kanter?? Then that money cannot be spent on Al, consider two of the core four can play center. So by keeping Al all year, Jazz will have to shape their system to Al, and their defense since he is a defensive liability. Play him 30+ minutes through the year, and along with Millsap’s 30+, and Favors 30+, Kanter and Evans get DNPs. So its pretty simple: develop and pay the core four while shaping the offense to them, or keep Al and pay him and shape the offense and defensive system to him (even for one year, that sets the Jazz back a year, so multiple years and the franchise will have another rebuilding year in 2 years when our young talent leaves because we cannot pay them nor did we developing some of them properly).
Beautifully said Omar!
Thanks Dallan. I dont know abou you but this sums up Al, myself, and Utah Jazz 360.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NthVBM1A-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Did you watch Kanter last year? He would not put up numbers like you say against prime competition like Dwight Howard or Tyson Chandler. Kanter has a long long way to go. Dont be so foolish. Those numbers you post dont reflect his competition.
Omar you COULD have a point with Al’s DNPs but it kind of defeats the purpose when your sample size is 1/17 of a full season. Any GM that makes such a big gamble on that little amount of info would quickly be out of a job. I can see that being a point if Al missed 50 games and our production increased in 40 of said 50 but 1/17 of a season is too small.
Al isnt the future. I have never thought that and I never will. But I dont think the Jazz should mail in the next three years by trading Al so we can see if our guys reach potential. What if none of them are as good as they should have been? If favors ends up as a marcus camby type player(good not great), Hayward doesnt improve much, Burks continues to make poor decisions with the ball, and Kanter never grasps the offensive side of the ball, what do we do then? Our core 4 is not a sure thing yet. None of them are All stars yet. They are all potential with no overwhelming amount of substance. The experts that Dallan loves so much tend to think that Favors will never reach All Star level. Read the Hoopsworld chats. I disagree but its a possibility. A lot of analysts see Kanter as a probable bust. Again I disagree but its possible. If we drop all of our good veterans we can really set this team back decades of success.
Why not extend Al and continue to be a 5-8 seed while our young guys develop and then when the time is right cut Al loose and make a smooth transition into a championship contender. That sounds much more logical than having a fire sale this year and then have 2-3 years of lottery appearances while hoping that our guys end up being good.
Omar. Kanter doesnt need 30 mins a night in his sophomore season to develop. He can do that without starting. Trading Millsap gives Kanter the playing time he needs. Get a 4th big that can take his minutes from last year and he can fill the minutes that Favors had this year.
@JRN, I appreciate that you understand Jazz CANNOT keep both Al and Millsap. Financially cannot do that without Kanter and Evans getting DNPs and the Jazz not resigning some of core four. The reason I would keep Millsap over Al is because Favors and Kanter can both play center and Millsap is cheaper.
But from a basketball standpoint, its no contest that Millsap is significantly better, and the Jazz defensively are far superior. Those DNPs are remarkable! Yes they are only 5 games, but that is what is so remarkable. The games took place in December, 2 in January, and 2 in March, yet the stats are almost identical. Harris numbers were MVP numbers, Favors and Millsap had some of there best games. But defensively the numbers are remarkablely similar. The only variant is Al. Thats like rolling dice twice and getting the same total. If the Jazz had played a lot of games where most had similar numbers that would mean much than a small sample that has exact results. Jazz only gave up one 100 point game, and that was 2OT. Look at the phenomenon with the Knicks when Melo got hurt and Knicks were playing their best ball. Melo and Al have the same game, except Melo goes to line and has range.
Kanter had to of his best games against Bynum and Gasol while Al had 2 of his worst games against Bynum and Gasol. So no do Kanters number show up against Chandler and Howard, but neithet did Als. This like NCAA football: against common opponents, Kanter out played Al.
@Dallan, a trade with Houston might be are only play left. They have 21 players under contract and Howard is off the table, so even if they want to sign big name FAs next year they will need expiring contracts. Im sure if any coach would want a two center frontcourt, it would be McHale. And he values Al. So that trade is really possible.
@JRN I am not saying Kanter is going to come in and make them look like little girls. But I am saying he would come in and get 10 points and 10 rebounds and that is what we need of him. People act like we need 5 players that average 20 a game. So what if we are bad this year? Why should we continually get the 8th seed? If it takes 3-4 years to get rid of Al and our people have not developed we are screwed anyway so why wait that long? Lets find out what we have and in the process if we lose a lot this year then we have a chance at Shabazz Muhammad who is a great player. Everyone says we do not have a Durant and they are right so if we have to lose to get one and plug him in with our all ready great young players then lets do it. But lets not be mediocre for the next 20 years
We dont have to know if Kanter and Favors are good enough to substitute Al and Millsap. We have half a season of proving ground. The real test is Corbin
Fact: Without AL this team was better defensively last year. Points needed from loss of AL’s production will come with better defense and more free throws. The Jazz front office is moving this team toward the contender position, by building a defensive minded team, but with KOC he never to rarely jumped on a move. Jazz should have sent AL to Houston 2 months ago for a Lowry or Dragic and Martin trade but…
Seriously, another thread of Dullard Forsyth rants? We really need to just stop making posts about Jefferson, or just completely ignore Dullard’s comments in those posts, because these things otherwise just lead to posturing, bickering and absurd hyperbole.
I enjoy hearing everyone’s opinions. Even Dallan’s and Omar’s. That’s what this site is for. I only get annoyed when someone acts like their opinion is fact and everyone else is stupid. I love the debating and I think it forces everyone to REALLY think through what they are saying.
I don’t have the time to search through mounds of stats and breakdown every big man on the team game by game. But I do love to watch the Jazz, and i do watch for things that do not show up on the stat sheet. So I come here and share my opinion and enjoy the occasional debate with someone. I don’t want to come off rude or close minded, but I do want to voice my thoughts and opinions.
I think this culture that the Jazz have resorted to will never get us anywhere. Every few years we will be drafting a new player who has tons of potential, and fans will demand that we trade away everyone else and only focus on that one new player (In this case, there’s 4). Kicking talent down the road every 3 years will never allow us to develop an ounce of team chemistry. I fear what everyone will be saying about Favors in 3 years when we draft another PF/C and Favors is averaging 20/10. Do we just demand he get traded as well? Developing new players is a useless practice if we plan on always trading those who are finally developed.
I know everyone will say Al isn’t developed or that he sucks or whatever, but his averages on offense say otherwise. Favors has good help D, so I don’t even think Al’s defense is a nail in the coffin like some make it out to be. Just remember when we had Ostertag, we would have commited homicide to get a player like Al.
Perfectly said @Tyler.
This is my opinion and that is all it is. If you like my opinion or do not like it that is cool with me. Some of you look at stats and other things in your comments. I think that is cool. The thing that is really very inportant is the opinion of the Jazz front office. We agree or diesagree with what they do and that is fine. They do have more knowledge of what goes on that we do not. What I am asking is just be in mind that those are opinions and only opinions.
This is what I would like to see happen. The CBA states what each team can spend on its players. With that in mind the Jazz can not keep both Sap and Big All unless that will take a cut in pay. Well we all know that will never happen. So one or both will have to be traded so this is what I would like to see happen. My first choice for a player to be traded is Big Al (I do like Big Al, I have seen him pull out some games and others are lost) becasue he has the highest salary. I would like to see him traded for players that will help the team. There are teams out there that are in need of a scoring center. When Mark Eaton played for the Jazz I remember talking with friends that all the Jazz needs is a center that can score. We have a center that can score. What way do you want it, a center that can score or a center that plays great defense? Think about it?
The thing to remember and account for when talking about Kanter replacing AL, is the guys that watch them both every singel day, both suggest that Kanter has another year or 2 before he is “ready”
Its not anything about his talent in the post, that is obvious. Not anything about his rebounding, he is a monster. Its the little things that Kanter still needs to develop, i listened to KOC talk about him during summer league and he talked about kanter appears lost at times, its those type of little things that Kanter still needs to develop, and that just comes with time.
@ kevin I see your point, every player plateu’s statistically to what they are capable of at sometime in their career which becomes boring to fans that want everyone to continue getting better. Al is definitely the player He is going to be. If favors plateu’s at 20/10, I would be ecstatic because of his solid defense. If there was a decision to keep 1 of them between a 30/15 Al VS. 20/10 Favors , Its hands down Favors because of what he brings defensively.