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It’s Time for Money Ball
Posted by: Jazzaholic on December 29th, 2012
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.It’s just a glaring fact, that Ty is not going to fix the problem on his own.
The problem is the starting lineup loses ground, the kids come in and regain the lost ground and Ty just can’t control himself. He puts the starters back in. Every time! When the bench is doing well, he just won’t ride the success.
Over and over again we see this.
The only way to deal with a coach who will not play the young developing, efficient players is to trade off the older, high priced vets, forcing him to play the Core4.
You can get the movie Money Ball on DVD from the library for free. Check it out.
The Jazz have the same problem. The older and more highly paid the player is, the more likely he is to start and get the extra minutes. It does matter who starts. Starters get more minutes! Any team and almost any player, the starters get more time. What does our Core4 need more than anything? Game time and crunch time experience. They’re not getting it sitting on the bench.
Raja Bell, Paul Millsap, Al Jefferson, Earl Watson, Jamaal Tinsley, Mo Williams, Randy Foye and DeMarre Carroll all have expiring contracts, which are attractive to other teams, making them more easily traded. DeMarre and Randy have small enough contracts and make a great enough contribution to the team, that they should be off the table, unless something special comes back.
Toxic Raja is gone one way or another. He will be traded or waived. Anytime he wants out, all he has to do is offer the Jazz a discount to waive him and he’s gone. Unless the Jazz get a discount, they pay the same amount, while he’s on South Beach evening out his tan. There’s no incentive for the Jazz to waive him, unless they get a discount or are forced to make room for another player (they are at the 15 max player roster). A trade will be the best for the Jazz. His salary goes to another team and they get a roster spot. He could be included as a bitter pill to sell an unpalatable trade for the Jazz, just to get rid of him. Unless he’s traded or discounts his salary, there’s no reason for the Jazz to waive him before Mar 1st, so he can play for a playoff team, without a discount.
Obviously, Millsap and Jefferson will be the main focus of trade talks before Feb 21st. Trading either one, or both, breaks up the starting lineup and forces Ty to come to grips with the reality of starting Favors and/or Kanter, the obvious future of the team. Depending on the player(s) and draft picks picked up by the Jazz, there may be further changes in the starting lineup.
The starting lineup just DOES NOT WORK!
This is the 2nd year they have been playing from behind and losing gains the bench gives them.
There are occasional sparks and Big Al is starting to take it to the hole, instead of just jump shooting each possession, and his crunch time performances have been great. Paul comes to life every so often, but they both move up and down the court like sludge oozing toward the opposite basket. A fast break? They are nowhere to be seen, even to follow up on a missed shot. Their defense on the pick-n-roll is improving, but usually a disaster. Paul would be great coming off the bench against smaller power forwards, but Ty won’t put him on the second unit. Instead, he forces him to play undersized and out manned on the starting unit.
If Ty won’t do it, then Dennis and Kevin need to force the issue with a trade or two…Play Money Ball!
Jazzaholic
Replies: 27
Views: 881
27 Responses
And in that same movie they let a player start at another position than his ‘natural’ one..Burks @ point?
!
Why not? There’s sure not much production at the point right now and the Jazz are treading water at best, sitting outside the playoffs, looking in.
Very little downside.
Playing with Gordon at “co-point gurard” makes waaaaay toooo much sense.
Jazzaholic
It is possible the Jazz want to continue starting Big Al and Paul to enhance their trade value.
I can see that.
I just hope they can make a good trade, because of it, and not just further delay development of the Core4.
Jazzaholic
You’ve posted about this before Jazzaholic, and it rings as true now as it ever had before. Problem is, I hardly see our stubborn front office or ownership buying into it, they’re content just hovering just right around complete mediocrity.
I dont know if anyone is reading Locked on jazz anymore. Lock is trying to tell us that winning with the C4 last night or any time they are on the floor together wont last. He says the only reason we beat opponents with Hayward, Burks, Kanter, and Favors is because they have good defense and bad offense but score with put backs by “unsustainable offensive rebounding”.
Here, the outcry is to get rid of certain players.
The Jazz’s Facebook page seems the outcry is for Coach Ty to be gone.
@Jazzaholic – I really hope you’re right about playing Al and Paul to up their trade value. I would think the front office would be savvy enough and willing to win enough to pull that trigger. If (God forbid) they don’t do that, I might join the Facebook throngs and call for Coach’s head.
I would money ball, but so long as KOC is in charge I dont see much hope. Had DWill not been so vocal and physical showing he wanted out, I doubt KOC would have trade DWill during the season. I guess we should thank DWill for being pouty.
Corbin, Al, Millsap, Watson say all the right things so I dont see KOC trading them; even Bell thats says the wrong things hasnt been trade, so I have little hope in Jazz FO.
If you remember when Toxic Raja first went Toxic, he then started a couple of games, only to be never played again, when no trade was forthcoming.
I’m sure this was in hopes of showcasing him to other teams for a possible trade.
It’s not uncommon in the NBA.
Jazzaholic
You are right. If Bell wants to play for a contender his agent better make a deal for a discount. After Mar 1st no chance this year or maybe next.
If Jazz come right out and say players are on the block they will be like the Raptors and have no moves or not too good of deals. I think they are playing their hand hoping another team comes calling with a good offer.
AL and Paul have both looked lousy the last few games. Maybe it will show Sap he had better take the sixth man role. Maybe sign to a three year thirty-three mill.
I would bet Bell, Al and Watson are gone at trade deadline.
I see where Maynor is now third string. Maybe get him back..
Oh and by the way Burks college team did not have a point guard. Just two guards. If Mo will be out six to eight weeks will someone argue that a Burks/Hayward starting tandem could not do any worse than either Watson or Tinsley playing??
I hope the Jazz hold to the March 1st waiver, to prevent Toxic Raja from getting paid all his money AND signing with a playoff team.
Ty would probably argue for the vets. So, doubtful we ever see the dynamic duo at co-point guard. But, you know where my vote and hopes have been for the last 2 years.
Jazzaholic
Locke’s analysis has definitely gone downhill this year.. Start with good defense, which in itself will fuel a lot of easy offense, and then develop the offense over time. Use your athletecism. Not sure if he’s noticed, but the best athletes are winning in the NBA. I’ve seen moves from Favors that he makes look easy that Paul and Al only dream of. And his defense is already elite. Right now, the Jazz starting 5 make offense look SO hard. And tell me WHAT have the Jazz improved on this year (besides what the new guys bring over Raja, CJ and Howard)? Favors is getting LESS minutes now than last year all while Millsap and Al are playing worse. Run a freaking offense that uses your athletic abilities that get guys open shots in spots where they are good. Favors rolling to the hoop, Kanter baseline jumper, elbow jumper or on the block. Burks to the hoop off a perimeter pick, Hayward off the downscreen curl. Get a decent PG who can execute those plays, hit a three and defend and we are set. Any of that is better than the offense I’ve been watching from the Jazz the last two years, plus we’ll have a much better defense! Locke is going to be proved wrong and be proved the fool that now we’re just suspecting of him.
The win-now concept is failing. Failing because we’re NOT winning now. Not at any significant rate better than we would with our young guys, except we’re paying a premium for vets while sacrificing development time for the guys that will matter two years from now. The young guys are going to hold it against Ty and this organization just like D-Will did when Sloan played McLeod over him when it was obvious Deron was better. How did that turn out when his contract was coming to its end? I hate the no-risk, ok-with-mediocrity mindset that has petmeated from the top down all the way to D Locke.
I think Locke’s problem is the Jazz are paying his salary and it’s hard to be objective or critical, when your job depends on the Jazz management.
Sometimes he seems to be stretching for justification of Ty’s coaching, or lack thereof, instead of a critical review.
His thoughts and stats are good, but that should be kept in mind when listening. The same with the rest of the media directly on the Jazz payroll.
It’s just what you’d expect, if the Jazz were paying us (like that will ever happen)
I agree with your comments and have been told how wacky I am in believing Kanter will be a fantastic player. I am a little wacky, but I thing Enes is living up to my expectations. Favors has been an easy call for everyone but Ty, who continues to keep him on the bench and not give him the minutes he needs to develop.
I just hope the Core4 don’t get their minutes just before they become restricted free agents and the Jazz have to over pay or lose them, because they resent their poor opportunity to play and develop.
Jazzaholic
@ Jazzaholic I dont think you’re wacky at all. If you think about it Kanter has taken the biggest jump of the C4, hes played the least amount of organized bball or any bball. He has suddenly become more athletic and real student of the game. His post moves and offensive production have taken such a big jump for a young big man , its just unreal to watch. Hes by far the most loyal jazz player to ever don a jersey. He was probably a fan of memo and the jazz watching us from Turkey the first time he picked up a ball. With that much potential and loyalty , he might be the cornerstone.
I just have a question that I really don’t know the answer to, how often to the “anointed 4 saviors of the Utah Jazz” play against the starting five of the opposing team? Any stats available on those match-ups?
The problem is Tyrone Corbin.
I maintain the Enes Kanter is the only player on our roster who will be an All Star.
I don’t need locke’s dumbazz stats, all I need to do is watch the damn game to see that the C4 our hustles and out plays the starters.
When the Core4 get time together on the court is rare and usually play a mixture of bench and starters, so that would probably be a meaningless stat. But, you do get some idea of their potential by looking at the +/-. None of the starters had a + game in the Clippers game, almost all the bench did. I think it also passes the “eyeball” test. Half the possessions are defensive. Every stat shows the Core4 better than the starters on defense. Their offense in improving, but would improve more with more PT and crunch time experience.
Everyone around me at the games is sick of me yelling “they can’t handle the Kanter” every time he touches the ball. He is a low post, a real low post, player, not one who claims to be. I don’t think there’s a player who can handle him one on one. Without a double or triple team, he usually gets a basket or free throws. Yes, he still will bring it down, where the pesky little people can swat at it and doesn’t pass it out often enough, but that is improving every game. Give him the time to develop! That’s all he needs. More time on the floor and he doesn’t have to do so much in a short space of time. Right now he tries to do too much, so Ty might give him extended PT. He makes more mistakes because of the short PT.
As you have probably figured out, I’m highly biased for the Big Turk!
Jazzaholic
@ Deb have you been watching games? The only time Blake got shut down was when Enes and Favors were on the court. They got physical with him and he retaliated picking up 3 or 4 frustration fouls. Al and Millsap laid down. If you saw Clippers starters out of the game against C4, some of the game was because they put the starters in foul trouble. Jordan was in foul trouble too. It was a physical match and our C4 got in foul trouble eventually, but at least they fought and pulled us back into a 29 pt turn around getting us a 19 pt lead against the hottest team in the NBA. So yeah there is a reason to make some noise by fans about lineups and playing time.
Our Vets were supposed to lead the way, show the youth how to compete and play smart and grow in a winning environment. Instead We have 2 #3 lottery picks riding pine watching the Vets play lazy and give up 10 pt leads to start games, just in time for Corbin to pull the plug and put the burdon on our youth to play catch up every night. Its not about saviors, its about hustle, ending contracts and development. But if you want to compare talent, then yeah the C4 are better. They try harder. They are more athletic. They were scouted higher (except for Marvin)on a national level. And now they are playing better.
Will Dennis aggressively play Money Ball with Big Al and Paul?
Will Kevin allow it?
I think Greg sees it on a non emotional, more business, level and will go along with it. Will he push it?
Let’s hope they figure it out and trade expiring vets for some assets to let the Core4 develop.
Jazzaholic
@Deb. I think this has been something passed on by Locke that is now being stated as fact. When in fact he contradicted himself in the same statement. He said “No other team substitutes like us. They bring in bench and starters together. We have 5 set man units.” Then in the very next sentence he states how Kanter and Favors never play against starting bigs. See a problem with that??
Well that is absolutely false. When he said that a couple weeks ago and I went and looked to see. The 11 games that I looked at 6 of them 100% of the time there was a starting big on the floor with Kanter and Favors. 3 of them were over 65% of the time a starting big was on with them. One of them was Dwight Howard who Kanter played 11/18 mins against. One game was vs OKC where Kanter scored most of his points while on the floor against Perkins and Ibaka. So that leaves two of those games that they did not. One of them was Orlando though and I had no idea how to say who the starters were because they mix and match them a ton. So one game they are starters and the next not. So just because they are starters that game does not mean they will be starters the next. So in all reality they played against starters there as well…
Here’s the +/- year to date.
D. Carroll +71
J. Tinsley +70
E. Kanter +51
G. Hayward +25
A. Burks +22
J. Evans +16
D. Favors +2
K. Murphy -12
M. Williams -16
E. Watson -26
P. Millsap -55
M. Williams -63
A. Jefferson -77
R. Foye -133
Except for Tinsley and Murphy, do you see a trend?
+/- isn’t a very good stat for one game or a player playing a few minutes, but for the year to date? It tells a story.
The conclusion seems obvious. The younger, lower paid players are more efficient.
The future in now. Just getting Ty to play them, that’s the problem.
Jazzaholic
…so let’s not skirt the issue. Tyrone Corbin is the problem.
If Greg, Kevin and Dennis would sit down with Ty, guarantee his job, and tell him they want this team to be really great in the future. But, he needs to develop the talent of the younger players, without regard to egos, salary or years played by the vets. His job will be safe, if he tries to win AND develop the kids as quickly as possible.
Coaches worry, with good reason, about job stability. Winning is the only thing close to a guarantee. But, if management says they want development as their #1 priority and winning is #2, perhaps he can relax and try some lineup changes, without fear of being canned.
The Jazz have somewhere between 4 to 10 teams in the West who are better than the Jazz this year. They are NOT going to get home court and may not even make the playoffs. So, it’s not like you’re giving up a championship, but you could be throwing one away down the road, by not giving the kids PT.
Jazzaholic
Bill Ingram
“Just about the time I think the Jazz need to deal Jefferson he has a dominant game like last night and I wonder if Kanter is really ready. I think they could deal Millsap in a package for a starting PG and improve immediately, but that doesn’t make them contenders unless they were to land someone game-changing like Rondo or maybe Calderon (who seems unmovable at the moment). An elite playmaker would help Utah immensely . . .but they don’t look like a team that’s going to contend this season without a major All-Star addition, and there aren’t many moves like that to be had.”
I disagree. I think the reason Ty is such a terrible coach is precisely because he HAS been guaranteed his job. His basketball IQ is so low he thinks that Randy Foye in the starting line-up and to END GAMES gives us the best chance to win. Also, bench Millsap for the entire 4th quarter.
#firecorbin