Meet
The Co-Point Guard Idea
Posted by: Jazzaholic on January 4th, 2013
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.The last couple of years, I keep bantering the idea of Gordon Hayward playing point guard. For the last year, Alec Burks together with Gordon as a Co-Point Guard unit has been my delusion.
Most dismiss this as the mutterings of an old man, but let me give you my reasons.
1. Physically, 6′6″ and 6′8″ makes a tough match up problem for any team.
2. Defensively, they are big enough to switch on pick-n-roll/pick-n-pop. Long arms cover a lot of ground and make 3s harder to shoot.
3. The Jazz are short a starting point guard, with Mo getting operated on, and Earl not anywhere near where he has played in the past. Plus, they are on the team and playing right now. There’s no need for a trade.
4. Offensively, Burks is still having his problems, but still is light years ahead of Tinsley or Watson. Gordon has been really lighting it up the last few weeks.
5. Either one can bring the ball up and get the offense started, and already do so on occasion. When pressured, there are two point guards to get the ball up court.
6. They both penetrate and kick out to the 3 point line or finish the layup better.
So, how do you go about implementing it? Tinsley looks like the best option to start the game. Then, bring BOTH Gordon and Alec in at the same time for Tinsley and Foye. That way, they get to play against the bench point guard, giving them a better chance for success.
I’d be interested in your thoughts.
Jazzaholic
Replies: 38
Views: 1365
38 Responses
I would agree with one change. Let Burks and Hayward start and Foye and whomever play the second unit.
Two reasons. Hayward started out as a point guard and Burks played his college ball as a two guard system,not a point and shooting guard. Any thing is better than the Tinsley/Foye system.
Eliminate Earl, who appears to be the weakest link in the rotation.
They are both coming off the bench now, so why not bring them in together?
Jazzaholic
I totally agree, even when Mo comes back they should be 2nd choice. Hayward can be the point forward much like Lebron does for Miami. The problem I see is that Corbin won’t try anything different so it won’t happen
Only problem is that Gordon hayward is a turnover machine. I like the concept. But he would easily average 4 turnovers per game.
PG is about making the right play, i think thats where burks is lacking, but i think that develops with playing time. His offensive skills are a notch above anyone on this squad, but I’ve been really impressed with some of the passes alec has made in pick n roll situations. i think if corbin will simplify the game for him, and put him in more P&R’s, alec will fit in nicely at PG.
Ty isn’t renowned for his innovative substitutions, but there’s always a first time.
I don’t know if he has more or less turnovers as a 50% PG. He gets most of those TOs going to the basket from the SG/wing position.
Do the TOs go down with the ball handling and running the point or up with more time on the ball? Is he just bringing the ball down and starting the play throwing it into the post or penetrating to kick or finish?
Same thing with Alec.
It’s not like Jamaal and Earl haven’t had more TOs than field goals.
But, you’d expect the TOs to decrease with more experience and playing time.
Jazzaholic
Stupid TOs will drop with experience, but you should expect with more playing time of course his turnovers will go up, thats just how it is. Right now he’s avg .5 TOs a game, that will go up, no doubt.
The top 5, well 6, in turnovers are:
Jrue holiday 3.8
Kyrie Irving & Rajon rondo 3.6
Kobe, harden, and Westbrook 3.5
All of whom, are either 1st or 2nd in minutes played for their teams.
With more playing time, the stat to focus on will be his Ast/TO ratio. Right now, burks has a 1.3 Ast/TO, Tinsley 2.5, and suprisingly watson 3.2. If burks can get his Ast/TO to somewhere around 2.5, i’ll take that and call him my PG.
@Steve: You are right. You have to be trying to make the right plays. Give the other teams credit for their defense. The best practice is real game time. None of the players you mentioned became real good players right away. It all took time and years of playing experience. I think what Jazzaholic was trying to say is with what Tinsley/Watson, and Foye give the Jazz Burks/Hayward could do no worse..
I also been calling for this for a long time. I would start them though too. Earl and Tinsley should be retired and 3rd string. It is ruff to watch. Why not try it? You know why?…. because once they actually do million times better than the starters, Corbin will look stupid again! Most other team would have looked at are really bad PG situation and easily made the change already or at least tried something new. Tinsley and Watson absolutely kill us. Foye is not a starter as well! Use him like your supposed too. While he is red hot or situationaly. #firecorbin
Watson is killing the Jazz when on the court, but, as Locke pointed out yesterday and today, for some unknown reason, the offense is better with Jamaal:
“For the season the Jazz have shot 44.4% from the floor. When Jamaal Tinsley is on the floor for the Jazz they shoot 47.5%, an increase of 3.1%. (this is mind boggling) In addition, the Jazz average 97.8 points per game, if Tinsley were to be on the floor the entire game the Jazz would score 101.1. That is 1.5 points more than any other Jazz regular.” David Locke http://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjazz/
It used to be when Jamaal would shoot his flat footed 3, you headed for the nearest covered area, because there was not telling where that bomb would explode. After missing about 3,210 3s in a row, all the sudden, he’s started hitting a few. It reminds me of another old slow point guard, Jason Kidd, until the past 3-4 years. If Jamaal can hit enough 3s to force them to guard him, he’s probably ok. Keep practicing those 3’s Jamaal!!!
Jazzaholic
@LK well shoot… i’m not trying to argue his point at all! haha If thats what you got from my posts i need to figure how to make it sound more supportive! I absolutely would love to see him get time at PG, especially over watson!
i just tried to explain why i think he hasn’t yet recieved playing time at the PG, which is due to making the right play, but also say he NEEDS the playing time to learn how. Also, I think if corbin simplified the game with burks at the pg spot, he’d be really, really effective and probably outplay watson/tinsley!
if you would please, re-read both my posts with a supportive view! haha
Tinsley does get the ball to teammates in a better position than Watson. He is a good PG and should be used to help a young PG learn the ropes, much like Al has helped Kanter and Favors
Tinsley has the mind of a pure PG, its just that he is old. Had it been 2002. So I think Tinsley needs to come off the bench so he goes against bench for the most part.
Watson…..uhg…Watson needs to be DNPed X infinity.
Watson in the 5 games since Mo’s injury has only made ONE FG more than Burks in any of Burks DNPs, lol?! In Burks DNPs he has zero FGs: Watson in 110 minutes over five games has ONE FG—one more than DNP Burks.
Bench Al, Foye, Tinsley
Start Hayward, Burks, Favors (at least)
Dump Tinsley
*dump WATSON!
Big fan of the idea of Hayward & Burks sharing the PG duties!
Neither of them are great… But why would you dump tinsley, when he’s obviously the better of the two?
I don’t understand though, why everyone wants to start brks and hayward, when we all know the ball is just going to be dumped down into Al? I say play them as much as possible, but do it without Al on the floor!
*nevermind omar.. looks like i’m a really slow typer
Ty did make mention of possibly trying Randy, Alec or Gordon at PG, but no mention of Alec/Gordon co-point guard.
Maybe he’s started reading the blogs?
Jazzaholic
@jazzaholic i’m convinced he’s atleast read this one! Burks, Hayward and Carroll looks good out there!
I normally hate being wrong
I was so surprised when he actually did this, just now. They did fantastic. Five minutes, and went on an 11-0 scoring run, effectively getting us back in the game. And then Corbin reared his ugly, moronic head again, and subbed in the scrub starters to show us all what mediocrity truly looks like. What a joke.
lol, Andrew I though the same thing!
Burks in 3 minutes as PG scored as many points as Watson did in 115+ minutes at PG!!!! Who is the better PG, shouldn’t even be the ultimate question; it should be Who is the better basketball player….uuuhhh….Burks. If Watson complains about this, he needs to get checked.
*FGs that is.
Who’d ‘a thunk it?
The co-point did a nice job in the 2nd quarter. So, let’s give some credit to Ty for trying it. But…after having success he didn’t go back to it in the 2nd half.
Jazzaholic
He read your blog!
I am a big Hayward fan, I don’t think he has the most potential of the core 4 but a do think he is going to be the key to the success of the core 4. If he is successful he will be bring success to the rest of them. He is a player that can do it all. He can have key individual defensive moments and he can can have key individual offensive moments, but it is willingness to do be an unselfish team player that will lead to the success of the others is he can be more consistent from game to game. I’m looking forward to the day when Jefferson moves on and more time is allowed in the rotation for all players as more ball time will then go in Hayward’s hands where I think he becomes a more effective player.
Last season I watched him and thought the team would have been more successful had they put the ball in his hands more, and maybe having him play a backup PG at times. However I also noticed last seaso9n and this that when he does have the ball in his hands he can play a little unbalanced. He has a habit of trying to do too much, take that extra step here and there and opposition players are able to make an adjustment to force that turnover. At first I put it down to growing pains, but I think at the moment it might be a case of with Al in the lineup and holding the ball so much longer than the rest of the teammates Gordon in his eagerness tries too hard to make something happen when he does have the ball in his hands. I wonder without Al would Gordon be more patient with the ball or is his overeagerness part of his game. At this moment its too early to say.
Burks I love as a player, but I don’t see him as PG material. He is great and making things happen for himself and that is where he is useful as a Jazz player. He is less successful at creating for others and thats what you need form a PG. Watson and Tinsley do very little offensively for themselves but they know how to create for their teammates. As much as a I would like an upgrade at the PG position I can’t say Hayward or Burks would be a better option than Tinsley or Watson. If the team needs a new offensive threat then by all means Burks should be thrown on, but if you want 4 guys getting an opportunity for looks then Tinsley or Watson would be a better option.
What the Jazz may need to look for is finding another main PG thus allowing the option of using Hayward, Burks and Mo(when he comes back from his thumb surgery) interchanging with the new PG. I don’t see that happening though during this season.
Ive said something similar a couples of weeks ago…. Hayward pays pg at Butler… so the guy can make it, but this time I can say that Ty has make it… I see Hayward play at pg those games…. Whatever trades happens… then we could talk… I read a possivbly Rudy Gay trade, thats make Hayward think about playing on pg spot.
The dream I have since the are not going to start is when Kanter returns we have Burks,Hayward,Carrol,Favors,Kanter out there. Then the wings could switch every time. The bigs could switch every time and that would be incredibly hard for the other team offensively to handle. I think the more and more they play together as well they would be great offensively. They just gotta know where everyone is going to be. Last night it was jumbled but when this year at any time has Burks,Hayward,Carrol,Paul and Faves been on the floor together? Probably never even in practice.
For all the patience he has shown with this starting lineup Corbin certainly gives up on other line ups fast
I firmly believe that lineup won the game for us. After a fantastic first quarter, Phoenix was shooting upwards of 75%. Then the Burks, Hayward, Carrol, Sap and Faves lineup came in and shut them down completely, and I think that cooled them enough for us to play out the game as the superior team. That lineup is elite defensively, not leaving much room for any opposing scoring. The only weak link, I’d say, is Millsap, just because he’s undersized. With Kanter in that position, there’d be a lot of games where the Jazz hold their opponents to 9 points in a quarter.
I think Corbin needs to play that lineup, set up some go-to offensive plays with it, because every player there is capable of offensive play as much as they are defensive. That lineup should be our starters. The ball movement and hustle makes it a blast to watch, and it shows the greatness of the team.
Could you imagine what Favors would do with 30 odd minutes a game and having plays run for him
@disco-Right now if that were the case he’d be shooting 30% from the field and foul out early. That’s what. The grass isn’t ALWAYS greener and Sap is a good player.
BUUUT I do think Favs is ready for 30 minutes. I just hate that it’s likely at the expense of Sap. He’s busted his tail for us.
It was interesting how many media guys referenced the idea AFTER it was blogged and Ty, whether he read it or not, tried it in the 2nd quarter.
Ty did play Gordon/Alec some time together in the 2nd half, but Earl was the point guard.
The defense was much better with them playing point.
This experiment needs more than a few minutes in one game to see if it will work or not.
Jazzaholic
@chase- can your crystal ball tell me what the jazz 82 game record will be, or perhaps who will win the championship, cos I will put some bets on and make a fortune. He goes hard for his 20 mins as that’s what he knows he will get and he will never shoot 30% as when he doesn’t hit his jumper he takes it hard at the hoop.
Also DMC has busted his tail for the entire time he’s been on the roster, should he start for that reason? I think we are well past the primary school idea of starting those who try over superior players
@chase Dwight,Chandler,Lowry David Lee and countless others foul more then Favors and seem to stay in games.. Don’t just throw out stuff cause you think you know what your talking about..
@Disco and Dallan…”act like you know what you’re talking about”
It is a fact that Favs is a bit foul prone, it is also a fact that he hasn’t been finishing his shots around the rim. My prior post was merely hypothetical but you’re both obviously not smart enough to grasp that.
I want Favs to start as much as anyone, but he needs to learn some things; primarily staying out of foul trouble and finishing his shots.
If you need a reference, you can start with the link below. You don’t have to take my word for it. I don’t post emotional responses here, just facts.
Case in point:
http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Fouls.jsp?league=00&season=22012&conf=west&position=2&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=
Well it looks like Corbin tried this out and the Defense was phenomenal with Waston and Tinsley on the bench. Hayward and Burks both distributed the ball nicely.
Ty actually ran a “triple option”, with Foye in the mix too. But, Gordon did have to bring it up on occasion, with pressure.
Defense and offense improve with the co-point guard.
Alec’s ability to get to the basket is a benefit, but, despite that 3 pointer, his shooting needs to improve.
Jazzaholic