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FED UP WITH CORBIN!
Posted by: Dallan Forsyth on May 4th, 2012
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.When asked today why Favors did not get more playing time he said he has deserved it. But matchups have dictated I’m not playing him. So Millsap and Jefferson were getting it done? That is so hypocritical. If it was matchups he wanted Jefferson would not have played in the Phoenix games as much because of the Pick and Roll. Then they asked him about players quitting and he said We would find out who was going to play and who was going to pack up their tents. He would play who was playing tough.
Was this not the thing we heard from him in the first of the season and we still did not see the best players out there until injury forced is hand? Wake up Corbin you can say all this but you actually have to do it when the time comes to do it!!
Replies: 45
Views: 579
45 Responses
Can KC go coach the rest of the series?
Dallan…he’s looking at both ends of the floor. You seem to have tunnel vision on just the defensive end. If you get a chance, listen to the podcast David Locke put up this morning. He feels we are losing this series because of our lack of production on the offensive side of the ball. Millsap, Harris, and Hayward have all been ineffective on the offensive end in this series so far (a point Locke really hammers home). Favors isn’t a guy you can count on for consistent offense right now. That’s why Corbin feels he has no choice but to leave Jefferson on the floor, and he doesn’t feel Favors can defend Bonner and their other shooters out on the perimeter. Locke also talks about the “speed” of the Spurs, and how the big lineup hasn’t been very effective defensively on the floor in the first couple games of this series.
Let’s just all accept the fact that the Spurs are a superior team, and nothing Corbin does is going to change that fact.
Well obviously we are losing because of lack of production on the offensive end… we can’t seem to score more points than the spurs…
I think it was established before the series that theres no way for the Jazz to outscore the Spurs. so the best possible way to win is the defense.
I’d rather lose by threes than lose by lay ups.
The Spurs are a superior team. They ended with the top seed in the West. Nobody is contesting that.
We are all just saying that we want to see our Jazz team at a better level of play and attitude. And yes, Corbin is to blame because he is just acting the in the wrong direction, according to the wide majority of us and many NBA analysts.
Please don’t tell me again that Ty is learning … because the only way to learn is to be able to change one’s mind and accept extra ideas. You learn “against”, not “with”.
Let’s face it: Ty is the missing link between Sloan and the following coach. So the right question is: is this organisation and its fans ready for something else than Sloan Basketball ?
@John: … and easy offense always come from good defense !
@Jason- We aren’t all wanting Favors to simply REPLACE Jefferson on the floor the whole game, but to play the Big 3 when it’s not just Favors and Millsap. It doesn’t matter if Corbin “thinks” the Big Lineup isn’t quick enough to defend the 3, the point is he hasn’t tried it. I’ll take Favors on Bonner or Duncan any day of the week. Corbin hasn’t tried anything different, and we have been blown out 2 games. DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. Go Jazz.
It’s not Corbin’s fault that guys can’t hit wide open perimeter shots, to help unclog the middle. Jefferson was regularly facing double and even triple teams in the last games. You have to make the shots the defense gives you, and the Jazz haven’t done that so far. How in the hell is all that Corbin’s fault? Any coach is going to look terrible, if guys can’t hit point blank shots under the basket, or out on the floor.
I’m suggesting we don’t have good enough personnel to beat a team like San Antonio. Parker was killing us with his penetration in the first game, and Corbin made an adjustment in the second game. But, the Spurs, being the all around team they are, found other ways to beat us with their precision passing, and outside shooting ability.
I see both sides. To me one of the biggest problems is our iso offense. Seriously, how many pick & rolls do we run a game? One? Two? Our players need to be put in a position to run a better offense and get easier baskets, and yes actually start making them.
I love Favors, and I think he should probably play 30-35 minutes a night, but he isn’t going to make a big enough difference against a team like the Spurs to change the outcome of the series.
Jason, I don’t think Dallan has tunnel vision, but he is really focusing on one side of the ball. Actually, Locke mentions how Hayward was the only starter trying to get things done in the second game, and in the first game he did have a quietly really good game. Locke also said this, and numbers don’t lie. “Spurs have outscored Jazz 108-56 with Parker on floor and Favors on bench – with Favors and Parker on floor – Jazz lead 54-49″ Just throwing Howard in like we have has FAILED!!! And I’m sorry, first game, Al was good, but even. Second game, he was crap.
I would like to see the Jazz run more pick and roll, but more then anything, we need guys who can knock down shots from the outside. We have no offensive balance. We run our isolation offense as much out of necessity, as anything else. KOC needs to address this in the off season.
If Corbin leaves Favors on the floor for 30-35 minutes (depending on whether or not he gets in foul trouble or not) and we still lose the game, would everyone get off Corbins’ back?
I think the Howard/Carroll arguement is kind of pointless. It’s pretty much a wash to me either way.
Personally, I’d rather see Millsap at the three, and leave both of them on the bench.
When I see the “new lineup” on first play off game, I print on my mind that I dont know what’s on Corbin Brain. That’s it.
Browncoat has it right. Our offense has turned into a POST ISO offense. Of course no one can conceptualize how Favors will score. He’s not a great POST ISO player (yet)! But he’s quick and athletic, perfect for a MOVEMENT-based offense, which….(drum roll)…includes PICK AND ROLL. The downside to a POST ISO offense? Unless you have great one-on-one playmakers and shooters on the perimeter, teams can easily shut you down by packing the paint or having a great post defender like Tim Duncan. And poor Kanter. He’s not a good post guy either (yet), but that’s what plays they run for him. IMO, he would be a much better pick-and-pop type guy. He needs some space to make shots, but has a good shooting stroke.
Does no one else remember how the Jazz actually used to run an offense? They moved the ball all over the floor, had cutters, ran picks and guess what? Someone would get open and shoot a good shot, usually under the hoop. We would rack up assists in the high teens and twenties…oh the good old days. We would actually get corner threes out of our ball movement, the most efficient shot after a layup or free throw! I’m flummoxed as to why we’ve gone away from this. Oh wait, its because we now have Al Jefferson and Ty Corbin can’t seem to come up with an actual offense besides ‘throw it to the low post guy and hope they score’.
Also, are we going to try a zone ever? At least TRY it? It might not work, but when what we’re doing isn’t working, isn’t it time to try something else?
Also, its pretty much a given that the outcome of this series is a loss. But Favors 30-35 minutes is probably the difference between ‘losing so bad that the games are over in the second quarter and getting swept in 4′ to ‘the Jazz played hard, eeked out some close wins at home and lost in 6′.
Jason, the thing is, I think the realistic Jazz fans are the ones saying “we want Favors on the floor, and if the Jazz are playing with a fire, and still lose, I will be ok with that.” I’m the same way. It was clear that there were only a couple of players in game 2, Hayward was mentioned most, that played with any fire. The rest of the starters just looked like the were just getting out of bed. Favors has been playing with fire. Howard hasn’t, but Corbin starts him and no Favors?
It isn’t me, but plenty of people are pointing out that Corbin played a team that ended up winning out of necessity because those players he was playing got injured. Those injured players were the ones that were causing the team to lose. We are in the playoffs, but is Corbin doing a good job? Why did he go back to Howard when the Jazz were losing with him playing, but winning when he wasn’t?
These playoffs are the first time I have really truly questioned Corbin. No where on these boards will you see me questioning Corbin until now, after having empirical evidence, quantitative and qualitative experiences, and with other, more qualified people other than me saying the same things I’m thinking. (Sorry, but majority of the people on this board don’t count.)
I agree with much of what you say, and I do miss those good old days. But, it’s not just a matter of throwing the ball down low to the post. You have to have a good playmaking point guard like Stockton, or Deron Williams at the helm. Devin Harris is the wrong player for a team looking to get good ball movement. He only seems to play well when he’s creating for himself. I think Corbin would LOVE the system you suggest, but you have to best use the cards you have been dealt. Jefferson is a bad fit for the offense your suggesting as well.
I’m all for trying a zone also. But, the Spurs are such a deadly outside shooting team, that I doubt it would work. I had the same thought though.
I’ll ask again: If Corbin plays Favors 30-35 minutes in the next game, and we still lose, will some of you guys get off his back a little bit? Besides that, keeping it realistic, what else would you have him do differently in this series?
I’ll agree Devin is the wrong player for the system. But he can still score off the penetration and the pick and roll sets that up for him at least. Hayward is probably who you want handling the ball on the pick and roll. Did you see him hit a surprised Al Jefferson under the hoop a couple times when he drove the lane in the last game? (2-3 of Jefferson’s 5 makes out of 15 tries in game 2 came off of Hayward driving and dishing).
What’s funny is I posted a post at the season’s beginning about our system and which players fit and which didn’t. You’ll be amazed at the two players I thought didn’t fit in. Read it here:
http://www.utahjazz360.com/olwildcory723/right-system-wrong-players/
It is not the fact that we lose it is the fact we lose without our best players and options on the floor. I do not think we are going to win but I want the best chance we have. Those stats Locke show prove we are getting enough offense on the floor with Favors that we are out scoring them. So the offense will come.
I have stated before though our offense sucks against well run teams because they know how to stop Iso Jefferson. They know exactly what to do. Whether it was the 76ers, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs they are all well run and have shut down our offense. But we still run the same thing. I agree our offense is a problem I am not denying that.
Has anyone ever notice though that we do not run the same plays when the 2nd unit comes in as the first? Our bigs will have their man sealed and they never get the ball. We do not give 3/4 the people on the roster true opportunities to score which is not going to help anyone with confidence or making shots. The reason the Spurs have such a good offense is they want to pass the ball. If we do not pass we do not stand a chance
Also, Mr. Locke just posted an article that broke down Favors on the court versus the Spurs. His article is here:
http://weareutahjazz.com/lockedonjazz/2012/05/04/breakdown-with-favors-on-the-floor-with-whom-and-against-whom/
and here’s the summary:
Favors total (47 min): Jazz 103-97 Spurs
Favors + Kanter (20 min): Jazz 40-35 Spurs
Favors + Jefferson + Millsap(13 min): Jazz 30-34 Spurs
Favors + Jefferson (9 min): Jazz 16-11 Spurs
Favors + Millsap (7 min): Jazz 17-17 Spurs
And versus the opponent:
Favors v Parker (21 min): Jazz 54-49 Spurs
Favors v Duncan (17 min): Jazz 36-34 Spurs
And for some contrast when Favors is benched:
Duncan on floor: Jazz 54-109 Spurs
Parker on floor: Jazz 56-108 Parker
So besides our big lineup getting outscored by four points, every other lineup Favors is a part of has outscored the Spurs. Spurs outscore us 109-54 when Parker is out there and Favors is benched, and 108-56 when Duncan is out there and Favors is benched, but with Favors on the court, we outscore the Spurs 54-49 with Parker out there, and 36-34 when Duncan is out there.
So like I’ve been saying. Start Favors in place of Al, put Al in when Duncan comes out. Run pick and rolls with Hayward/Favors. When Big Al is in, run the post ISO against Duncan’s backup (Blair, Diaw, Splitter, Bonner). Play the last three minutes with your best players (the ‘big lineup’).
It makes complete sense, yet Corbin can’t seem to think out of the box and realize that in this playoff matchup that Favors should be starting and playing against Duncan in place of Al. Or even start Al and then take him out after four minutes and play the rest of the game like I said so Al’s ego doesn’t get butthurt over not starting.
Jason Michael Crannell is right you guys…
We can’t win anyway, so there’s no reason to try anymore. You always should quit and give up and concede defeat as soon as you make the playoffs. It makes no sense to play your best players and lineups cause you can’t win anyway. It all makes so much sense.
Like I said lets have KC go run the team his comment above is spot on! Movement based offense fits more of our players then the Iso offense we run now.
Dallan…I agree about the second unit not getting the inside players the same looks as the first unit. I’ll have to watch Tinsley a bit closer (since he’s usually the point guard in the game at the time), and see what’s actually going on. I find it hard to believe, as consumed as Corbin is with feeding the ball down low, that he would not want Favors and Kanter to score on the low block? Burks is also in with that second group, and some night he doesn’t look to pass much. Not sure where the blame falls on that. Interesting point.
KC…Do the stats take into account that Favors is usually on the floor when the Spurs hand their second unit guys in the game?
Also, were not talking about a large sample size with any of these possible combinations. How much of this is “garbage” time, after the Spurs already have a sizeable lead, and have their foot off the throttle? Also, whose in the game for us in the backcourt, when Favors is in the game with all these different linups? All these things need to be taken into consideration, which is why different stats can be misleading.
I’m not disagreeing with you though. I think Favors should be on the floor most of the game. It gives us our best chance to win. It’s interesting that the “big lineup” has been outscored by the Spurs, and that Favors and Jefferson has been a little better so far together then Favors and Millsap.
Jason, you’re missing the big picture. It’s very simple. Which lineup gives us the best chance to win? The Big Lineup. Therefore, the Big lineup should be our most used lineup.
We don’t have anyone that can consistently make shots from the perimeter. We don’t have a pure point guard (Harris is a shooting guard). We can’t run pick and rolls.
So what are we to do? Clog the paint and make the Spurs beat us from the perimeter.
Will we win the series? No. Will we compete? Yes.
That’s what was so pathetic about the last game. We didn’t compete.
And Corbin is incompetent. What kind of stupid coach leaves a player in the game who is obviously defeated. A player that has given up. A player that is bringing the rest of the team down. I’m talking about Al Jefferson if it isn’t obvious.
What kind of idiotic coach pulls his best player from the floor and puts in a loser (I’ve never talked about Jefferson this way. But this is how is playing and acting right now). Like a LOSER.
What kind of jackass coach pulls the player who’s making the biggest impact on the game in favor (no pun intended) of a player who is FORCING his team to lose.
Tyrone Corbin. THAT’S what kind of coach does it.
@Gerald, stop condescending people and acting like you’re some sort of analyst with privileged information, with “sources” that confirm your every notion. Come off it man. We’re all just fans.
#FireCorbin
But Nick, KC just gave us the stats (in a post about sixe comments up). When the “big lineup” has been on the floor, they have been outscored by the Spurs. Other lineups have actually faired better.
Are you still sure that gives us the best chance to win?
I thought it did at one time, but now I’m not as sure. Pop seems to have an answer for it.
I think Pop has an answer I do not care how Favors gets on the floor but he needs to be there. Also when he is on the floor give him the ball a little. When it is just him and Jefferson he never gets the ball offensively. I understand he is not the best but he hustles and gets his own miss half the time and still gets us points. I am not saying he has a plethora of moves but he has some good ones.
I’m just wondering if the Jazz played a “big 3″ of Favors, Kanter, and Millsap together, what it would be like?
Not just in this series, but in general. Am I having a brain fart, or has Ty used that combination at all this season?
He has used it for a little bit while Howard was out for like 5 mins not very long though. That would be interesting cause Kanter could body up Duncan and be more Physical then say Mr. Jefferson
Plus I think the closest we have gotten to a hard foul in this series was when Kanter stepped in front of him on the baseline. Jeffersons said they need to lay down some playoff fouls and I did not see that in Game 2 unless that is code word for let them roll down the lane wide open.
I was pretty excited when we made the playoff and ended the season on a really positive notes. Especially when Ty Corbin said that our team rotation will make other teams adjust to us, but now he is doing the exact opposite. He is adjusting our rotation based on the Spurs’ rotation. I’d rather to see us lose with our rotation that made the playoff push. End of Story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nick, I’m not privileged, and you are correct that I’m a fan also. But many don’t analyze. Like you, just start saying things. Sports take analysis. If you want to just randomly comment on things with analysis, then it’s your own fault if someone makes you feel small. I didn’t point anyone out, but we, as readers, can tell when someone posts something with objectiveness and analysis. You don’t want to feel condescended upon, post more objective comments. No one is out to get you, so I don’t understand the continual hostility.
Jason and KC are having a discussion, but they are doing it with much objectiveness and analysis. KC is even posting many of the quantitative things I’m talking about, and even made slight mention of.
What the complete stats that KC shows, it makes me feel the Spurs have great match-ups with Parker against Harris, and other players against Millsap. After getting past Harris or Millsap, the Spurs are then taking advantage of Al’s weak defense. That’s where the stats start supporting Favor’s defense.
comment on things without*
@Gerald It can be hard for many Jazz fans, and sports fans in general, to keep their emotions and objectiveness apart.
My thought was to have sort of an ‘rule’ to wait to post opinion articles until we have had a night to rest and think about what we saw during the game.
Fans jumping on Corbin about Howard was a little much, I do think we need him on the bench for scoring but it isn’t making us lose these games.
I guess many are looking for a scapegoat to pin our losses on, when the reality is that the Spurs are just that much better than us.
@Gerald–You don’t make me feel small. But yes you made me feel angry when you insulted me and everyone else on this site by saying that no one here is qualified to make any sort of objective statement about the Jazz.
Whether that was your purpose, I don’t know, and don’t care.
When I called you out, you backtracked and said KC Jones and JMC are making objective statements, but that I am not. I invite you to read almost every post I’ve written on this site for examples of statistics and analyses.
Just because I’m frustrated and am venting about Corbin doesn’t render what I’m saying inferior because it does not include a stat line. Excuse me for displaying some emotion. God knows there’s no room for that on a fan site.
I invite you to also watch the Game 2 pre game and post game interviews with Al Jefferson. I would then challenge you to objectively prove that Jefferson’s demeanor does not exude defeat and hopelessness. Particularly in the pregame/post shoot around interview, Jefferson sounds worn down, exhausted, and hopeless. He can’t even answer the interviewers’ questions.
Here is the link for your objective approval: http://www.nba.com/jazz/video/2012/05/02/20120502prejeffersonm4v-2086403
@James: Here are the stats that KC posted (via Locke) that prove my point that the big line-up gives us our best chance of winning.
“Favors total (47 min): Jazz 103-97 Spurs
Favors + Kanter (20 min): Jazz 40-35 Spurs
Favors + Jefferson + Millsap(13 min): Jazz 30-34 Spurs
Favors + Jefferson (9 min): Jazz 16-11 Spurs
Favors + Millsap (7 min): Jazz 17-17 Spurs
And versus the opponent:
Favors v Parker (21 min): Jazz 54-49 Spurs
Favors v Duncan (17 min): Jazz 36-34 Spurs
And for some contrast when Favors is benched:
Duncan on floor: Jazz 54-109 Spurs
Parker on floor: Jazz 56-108 Parker
So besides our big lineup getting outscored by four points, every other lineup Favors is a part of has outscored the Spurs.”
I will try and find more stats to appease Gerald. I just don’t think I’m adequate without a stat line to prove it…
I’ve been watching the Jazz and the NBA consistently for 20 years, and played basketball in high school and college. But I can never hope to achieve the stunning analyses that Gerald speaks so adamantly and decisively about.
That’s strange, though, because I am unable to find any posts written by him that contain statistical analyses.
That’s because you haven’t written any, have you Gerald?
I’m ranted about Corbin’s awful rotations and complete lack of common sense enough. He’s an incompetent fool who can’t or refuses to see what we all can and we have no reason to believe he’s a good head coach. I’ll leave it at that.
Maybe Corbin has already figured out all this and his rotations in game 2 were just mind games to Psyche out the Spurs, like Rocky Balboa against…that one other boxer (Mr. T? The Russian?). So sneaky!
The young guys need to be in the game for the PLAYOFF experience… You make the playoffs just to get swept in the first round, all the while just to miss out on 2 possible first round draft picks in a very deep draft.. And then Corbin refuses to put in the players that would benefit the most from the playoff experience.
Analysis is almost never subjective and is often speculative on this site. By everybody, me included.
I mean objective not subjective.
My analysis is spot on all the time!!
MUHAHAHAHA