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Why Igoudala could work.
Posted by: Dallan Forsyth on July 20th, 2012
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.This has been a fun topic to talk about for the pure fact that it has been talked about for a long time. But now that we have Marvin Williams everyone is saying how would this work? Well that is a little complicated but also simple if it is laid all out. I am going to start out by saying though I do not think this will happen in the least because the trade I am going to suggest would involve a couple of teams and because of this it is just to hard to get done. Plus the Jazz rarely take risks even though this one could make us a contender this year. So the biggest thing is that people do not see how we can give everyone the minutes that are needed. I am going to throw a trade out there that might not be to popular because I am getting rid of Paul but like I said this lineup could get us a top seed in the West because we will have the ability to play Small or Big.
So this trade is going to involve 4 teams. That is why it is going to be hard for everyone to agree. But I truly think everyone is going to get what they want out of this deal. The 4 teams that are going to be involved in this trade are: Utah, Philadelphia, Memphis, and Toronto. The reason I put Memphis and Toronto in is because to get the maximum minutes for everyone you are going to have to get rid of Paul and Al. Because of this we need someone to take on Paul contract because Philly can not take on both of those contracts. So here is the trade
Philly gets-Al Jefferson, Jose Calderon, 1st round pick from Toronto
Utah gets- Andre Igoudala, Darrel Arthur, Nikola Vucevic, Josh Selby
Memphis gets- Paul Millsap, Evan Turner, Earl Watson, Demarre Carrol, and two 1st round picks and a 2nd round (one 1st from Utah, one from Toronto and then the 2nd from Philly). The 2nd from Philly is basically to Utah for Al but then we give it to Memphis for Selby. They get the two firsts for giving up Rudy Gay to Toronto.
Toronto gets- Rudy Gay
So what does each team give up in this deal.
Philly- Igoudala, Vucevic and Turner, 2nd round pick
Utah- Big Al, Millsap, Watson, Carrol, 1st round pick
Memphis- Darrel Arthur, Josh Selby, Rudy Gay
Toronto- Calderon and two 1st round picks
This trade works out money wise and it also works out for all teams. They are getting fair assets back for the people they are sending away. For those who do not know Darrel Arthur is a very serviceable PF that does a lot of different things and was one of the main reasons they got past SA a couple years ago in the playoffs. He was injured this year and many say he is partly the reason they lost to the Clippers. He is a good cheap alternative big that is not going to command a ton of minutes. So now that we got the team what do we do with the players and their minutes?
The starting lineup in this case would be this: Mo, Hayward, Iggy, Arthur, Favors
Then Corbin bring in the players as the situation shows. Which whatever lineup would work effectively put it in. This is basically how the minute Distribution would work though. This is not a particular order of when they would come in just how many minutes each would get at each position. The two fillers to complete the roster out are Tinsley and Murphy.
PG- Mo Williams 28 mins,Josh Selby 15 mins, Alec Burks 5 mins
SG- Gordon Hayward 25 mins, Alec Burks 20 mins Mo Williams 3 mins
SF- Andre Igoudala 25 mins, Marvin Williams 18 mins, Gordon Hayward 5 mins
PF- Derrick Favors 15 mins, Jeremy Evans 15 mins, Darrel Arthur 10 mins, Marvin Williams 8 mins
C- Enes Kanter 20 mins, Derrick Favors 15 mins, N. Vucevic 13 mins
Minute Breakdown:
Mo Williams 31 mins
Josh Selby 15 mins
Alec Burks 25 mins
Gordon Hayward 30 mins
Andre Igoudala 25 mins
Marvin Williams 26 mins
Derrick Favors 30 mins
Enes Kanter 20 mins
Jeremy Evans 15 mins
Darrel Arthur 10 mins
N. Vucevic 13 mins
This group of Players leaves us with a TON of flexibility. Ya we could obviously not play Marvin at the 4 against the Lakers when they have Pau and Bynum out there but what about when they are on the bench? Then you throw in the smaller lineup and abuse their bench. Marvin is big and strong and can guard most 4’s in the league. We could play big or play small and force teams to go small to match us. We would have more flexibility then the Heat though because we could actually go big which they can not do. This gives us a good young roster with some vets sprinkled in for some experience. This would be a team to be a force for years to come because once we started winning people would want to stay. Also the people we are bringing in are low risk, high reward. Selby,Vucevic, Arthur do not make much. But from what I have seen of them they are young and serviceable and will just get better.
I know this is a long shot but I think it would be AMAZING to put this team together and see what it could do. Like I said I think we are the top seed in the West with this roster. What do you all think?
Replies: 37
Views: 731
37 Responses
why would philly give up Turner and Iggy. The only reason they are trading iggy is because they think Turner is ready to take iggy’s spot
They just drafted Harkless and signed Nick Young. That is why they are getting a pick as well. Plus a lot of people do not think Philly is happy with him.
I can see the Jazz trying to move Al or Paul on as KOC has been told to be aggressive this summer and I don’t think moving Devin on who seemed to be misfitting in a Jazz uniform all that aggressive. That said I doubt that Paul and Al will be traded away together. That would make what has been a strong part of the team up until now suddenly a question mark for the new season. Is Favors ready to step up and be the man and not just the man with potential? Is Kanter ready to get serious minutes. Would a couple of new additions amongst the Bigs gel in a Jazz system when they are trying to fight for minutes.
Personally I see Al moving on and Paul staying, but trading away either of them could happen if KOC gets what he wants. If a trade for Paul gets a nice piece in exchange I can see the Jazz just allowing Al’s contract to run down for consistency this year and flexibility for more changes next summer.
Holy crap, how long did this take you?
Every team wants an Iguodala on their team, just not for $15 mil. Hayward is pretty much the same player anyway. I doubt Memphis would move Gay.
@steven we will never know if Favors and Kanter are ready to play big minutes unless they let them play. Someone has to go if thats going to happen.
Haha Jupit this took me FOREVER to work out the trade. I finally got the numbers right cause I added Toronto in the deal. Without the it does not work. Memphis was hard cause they have really high salaries or really low ones
I’m hoping the Jazz stand pat. I really like the current roster. The only change I might make, would be to lose either Watson or Tinsley, and bring in a younger point guard to groom behind Mo Williams.
Yes I agree with Jason we bring in Jimmer to groom behind Mo and iggy don’t work because he would push Hayward to the bench
@JMC- How does player development occur with the current roster?
@Steven – I don’t want the Jazz to be happy to be a bottom seeded playoff team each year. If they need to do badly for a season so that players can start reaching their potential I’m fine with that
Again I am glad KOC is calling the shots..
@L.K What is your problems with it? It is easy to say you do not like it but why?
I don’t think the Jazz brought in Marvin Williams to sit on the bench. He’s the biggest reason Iguodala probably won’t be coming to Utah anytime soon.
Kanter is very young, and I don’t see the need to rush him along at this point. The younger players learn a great deal from the veteran players in practice. I’ve heard Paul and Al have really put in a great deal of time working out with the young guys. There are advantages to not just being thrown to the fire. Stockton said he learned a great deal playing behind Rickey Green his first few years in the league. He’s thinks it made him a better player in the long run.
The Jazz have always been about winning in the short term. It has never been the philosophy of this organization to take a season off (so to speak), or to lose games for the sake of developing young talent. Remember the first season after John and Karl left, and they still managed like a .500 record, and almost made the playoffs with a bunch of role players!! Even Deron Williams didn’t start when he first arrived!! That’s just the way the Jazz roll.
Deron got 28 mpg his rookie year. The time you get in games directly correlates to how well you do in your career. If Kanter does not get time and is not allowed to play the Jazz will be responsible for that failure.
That short term philosophy has worked so well at getting championships. It shows a lack of ambition to continually be happy to sit in the middle of the pack
@Dallan: Sorry but someone had to cut the lawn. When Watson came back from injury and was not the main backup he did some badmouthing. That is not teamwork. I don’t ever remember Tinsley complaning about playing time. To say he will talk to his agent about playing time is immature. So I won’t lose any sleep over him being traded. And this Selby may or may not be the ticket.Carroll is on the fence. Out or in does not matter.Now you have made it known that you do not like AL.(Just a small hint.) Everyone on this board you could list their likes and dislikes of players.A quality player like Iggy yes go for it. Anything else I would question. With Iggy on the team he would not be able to kill us twice a year.My main question is trading two big men. Yes I have always liked Sap and always will. You need his kind on every team. People say he is undersized. Both you and I probably have undersized private parts. But do we trade them. Not on your life. They do the job fine for us. Again for a quality player?? He better be just a step behind Durrant. I think if D Howard is traded Al could fit in with either Magic or Rockets. If Howard stays put until trade deadline so does AL. Unless of corse a big trade comes along..
Everyone is trying to land Howard and after he is gone I think teams will start to be looking for another option and will be even more desperate to find a center. Especially the Rockets who only have a backup center that they are paying like 8 million or something.
@LK I was not calling you out i just wanted to know how you felt. I understand it is hard to trade both bigs but they could be gone next year anyway. If they get to much in the open market which is more likely then not then they are gone and we just got nothing for them. Even if it is a trade exception. That Is not worth a great deal honestly. We have gotten something out of ours but more then not they expire. But we have seen a lot of young talent switch hands in the sign and trades this year. So maybe we can but is it worth the risk?
@Logan I agree when Howard is traded a lot of dominos will fall. But it is time for the Magic to decide which offer is best and get it done. The Lakers can just not offer much so I do not understand it. Why they even talked to them is ridiculous. They all ready traded their picks for Nash. NJ was giving them the best deal and they just let it go. I think at some point Houston gets fed up and maybe comes calling to us. But what do you want out of that Houston trade if they came to us for Al?
Also Selby again dropped 32 on 7-11 shooting from three!! He is going to light it up is year
@Dallan: I really was not calling you out. You are one of the few posters who knows what he is talking about.I will agree that next in line to be traded would be Al. And for several reasons. Howard has come out and said whatever happens he will still test free agency next year. If he can prove that he has no back problems and has a MVP type year the cards will be in his favor. Cavs have also said Bynum must extend. So there are too many “Iffs” for this trade to go down. I see a lot of trade action at the deadline including Big AL..Rockets may still want Al but they have given up most of their players. I could still see a Martin to Wolves, Al to Rockets, and maybe Johnson and picks to Jazz. Hey maybe Williams then he might want # 8 to make your jersey good again..I think Lin was a flash in the pan and will cool way down this year.
Dallon, great post. I love the topic and the crazy time you took to get it done. I also think this is a trade that could happen. NOT that it helps every team more so than where they’re at now, but it honestly is a realistic swap of players where each team is getting back good pieces. I think however, this post above is worth quoting:
“I don’t think the Jazz brought in Marvin Williams to sit on the bench. He’s the biggest reason Iguodala probably won’t be coming to Utah anytime soon.
Kanter is very young, and I don’t see the need to rush him along at this point. The younger players learn a great deal from the veteran players in practice. I’ve heard Paul and Al have really put in a great deal of time working out with the young guys. There are advantages to not just being thrown to the fire. Stockton said he learned a great deal playing behind Rickey Green his first few years in the league. He’s thinks it made him a better player in the long run.
The Jazz have always been about winning in the short term. It has never been the philosophy of this organization to take a season off (so to speak), or to lose games for the sake of developing young talent. Remember the first season after John and Karl left, and they still managed like a .500 record, and almost made the playoffs with a bunch of role players!! Even Deron Williams didn’t start when he first arrived!! That’s just the way the Jazz roll.”
This sums it up. In addition to these comments, I’ll add- our front court would be greatly weakened, giving kanter more minutes than he should have, and putting favors at the 5? I see that’s possible, but not the best move. Arthur and Favors would kill us, absolutely kill us on the offensive end. Even with Iggi out there.
However, I see what you’re saying, you’re not saying this will happen, but it could work. The question is would it make us better? With what it does to our front court (unless your faith in kanter is much greater than mine) I don’t see this improving our front court at all. Selby? Well, I think he’s a 3rd pg on a decent team. I like Arthur, but to fill a 3rd big role, not to start.
Yes our guard rotation would be great, but I don’t’ see that giving us necessarily more wins.
I don’t know, if Vucevic and Arthur are better than what they’ve shown (being capable of heavy minutes at a productive level) this may work. But it for sure looks like it slices down our front court as it sits right now. Great idea though, I think the pieces being moved are realistic, but I don’t like the idea of starting Arthur JUST to have iggi start who’s offensive production has been on the slide and that’s not good being that he’s on a team where there’s no heavy offensive weapons, like us.
Good Job Dallan! I dont think everyone is sharing the vision. People watch team USA.
Marvin does not sit the bench unless, like Dallan stated we are playing against a big front court.
The ideal NBA or pro body size is around 6′8 220-250 lbs. Why? Because that size (if the player is athletic) can move around anywhere on the court and physically handle any other player.
Team USA is using a formula of 3 SF’s (i consider IGGy SF because of his size and strength for 6′6) on the court at the same time.
PG Paul
SF Iggy
SF Lebron
SF Mello
C Chandler
They are straight murdering teams, and I think largely due to that formula. And because Chandler is such a strong interior defender.
Jazz could compete with team USA with an IGGY trade, period.
Hayward, Iggy, and Marvin all play better defense than Mello. All three of them hit the three, all three of them handle the ball, rebound, and pass well. Add Favors and pretty much any PG and the Jazz are instant contenders, even in the loaded western conference. Not many teams could compete athletically. Maybe Thunder and heat on the east coast thats it. Unproven, so IMO Jazz would be #3 in the NBA with IGGY for Al.
@Ben I think Selby is not necessarily a true PG so he is more of a combo guard off the bench. You stick the kid in to score and he will do that and I think that is what we need as a compliment to what we have. If you stick him in the lineup with either Burks or Hayward or even Mo then they would not have to worry about Selby necessarily making the passes or the plays. He could play off ball or you could switch it up and play the other player off the ball.
I do agree that Vucevic and Arthur are not going to immediately come in and give us 30 mins a game. But we have 65 mins of the 90 mins taken up by people we know can produce. Plus if we had to we could give Favors 35 mins,Kanter 20 mins, Evans 15 mins and Marvin 10 mins. That only brings you to needing 10 more minutes from either Arthur and Vucevic. So they would not necessarily have to give us a ton of minutes if they were not producing and there contracts are low enough that it would not hurt us to bad.
Looking now I probably would not start Arthur. I think I would almost swap Kanter and Marvin depending on the match up. If we played the Lakers we would need Kanter and Favors in the starting lineup. But if we played the Thunder, Miami or even the Mavs we would throw Marvin in there and run run run. Plus with the depth we could run a ton and just make subs. It would be a Phoenix style but with A LOT better defense
Hi all. In my opinion I do not think it would be best for the team to trade Big Al and Milsap at the same time. One would need to stay with the team to be that vet leadership that the young player would need. Paul has also said that he would like to play his entire career in Utah. Now Selby can score and score in bunches. He can hit that outside shot and spread the floor. I was really very surprised how well Selby shot the ball. The point guard penatrate into the paint and kick the ball to Selby, soon teams would have to come out to guard him. That would make it much easier for the bigs to score inside also. What game is Howard playing, does he want all the attention by playing this game. He needs to just shut up and either play for the Magic or the Magic needs just to trade him to the best deal. I would think that what he is doing is not going to give any team incentive to trade for him. He has said, “I will not sign an extention once I am trader.” What does he want? Now if Houston does not get Howard they will be in a whale of hurt at the 5. Now if they do come calling to the Jazz, I think this would be an outstanding trade to ask for Donatas Montiejunas and/or Jeremy Lamb. There would have to be other things worked out on the Jazz trading Big Al. Now Big Al is a better at offence but Motiejunas is very good at defence and can step back and hit the 3 point shot or bang underneath with other bigs. Jeremy Lamb has a very smooth shot and has an excellent pull up jumper. Both of them can run the floor very well. But would Hosuton do it if they do not land Howard? Something to think about.
Leadership comes from being a leader not necessarily being a veteran. Plus we would get Iggy back in the trade who would provide better leadership then we got from Al or Millsap for that matter
Agreed. Trade them both we’d be fine.
Jazzed, if the jazz get iggy you really think they would beat team USA? Paul/Kobe/lebron/durant/chandler, jazz would get crushed. At what position do the jazz have an advantage? And what about the bench?
The Jazz don’t need as much offense at the PF and C position if they are trying to fit into the Thunder mold the thunder never go to their guys in the post they just run an offense around athletisism and shooting they have great defending bigs and that’s all you need. The Jazz already have better bigs than them not counting Jefferson and millsap so I don’t think you should be worried about trading them especially if you get another big that can play defense and score a little.
@Logan EXACTLY with our lineup we all ready have a leg up on the Heat and the Thunder both because our big guys will destroy there big guys. Ibaka defense was not that good when they played the Heat cause they just played a perimeter guy there and he could not do anything. If we do the same thing they will be taken away. Plus Favors is much more physically imposing then Chris “Raptor” Bosh. Plus Vucevic last year showed he could play well with minutes. He has some good range for a big man as well. He could stretch the floor more and the paint would be more open for either Kanter or Favors to work in there. Plus he is a true 7 footer which is good when you have to go up against the Lakers, and now even the Mavs.
I do not think they would beat Team USA but it looks like Williams might start instead of Paul. They have struggled with Paul which is not a surprise to me cause he disappears against the best PG so why would he not do that in FIBA play as well.
@NA So Favors doesnt have a shot against Chandler? Chandler? Enes has more offensive power than Chandler. From the practices I saw of the select team. Favors and Cousins pretty much both beat chandler for the center spot. But they would never have made it on the team anyway because it was too late with international medical exams. Hayward and Marvin cant hang with lebron, true. nobody can. but Marvin and Hayward can both shoot outside better than lebron and both are better defenders than Mello. IGGy against himself lol, so tie there.
but
PG Paul
SG Kobe
SF Lebron
PF Mello
C Chandler
against
PG Mo
SG Iggy
SF Hayward
PF Marvin
C Favors
Yes I would definitely give the Jazz 2 wins in a 7 game series.
everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I think you are off on this one. I am a huge fan of favors but his offense is pretty limited right now. And going up against the DPOY, I give the edge to chandler. As for the rest of the starting five paul> mo, kobe> gordon, lebron>iggy, and durant>marvin. Then you have usa’s bench which would be miles ahead of anything the jazz could throw out there. the jazz would be lucky to keep it competitive. Oh, and for their careers lebron (.331) shoots the 3 better than marvin (.329}. Hayward looks good at times but is too inconsistent from deep. Just my opinion.
yeah the USA bench is good , but I still think with Iggy we could beat them. Argentina 80 USA 86. Manu and Scola alomost beat them.
Millsap, Jefferson, Kanter, Burks off the Bench… not scrubs really.
Remember, you don’t have Jefferson. You traded him for Iggy. So that leaves you with Kanter, Millsap, Carrol/Evans, Burks and Watson/Tinsley. That lineup going against Westbrook/Williams, Harden, Melo, K-Love, and Anthony Davis. I’ll take team USA 7 out of 7. The Jazz couldn’t even beat the Spurs once in a 7 game series.
We simply do not need another starting SF. That is the entire reason we brought in Marvin Williams. Trading for Iggy would be a mistake at this point.
The only thing the Jazz need is a point guard unless Burks plays the point guard and then we could trade Jefferson for Jeremy Lamp or someone like that who could come of the bench and score!
Iggy has a huge contract, he stinks at free throws and hasn’t been a high impact player for philly. His contract would suggest he should be. This doesn’t make us any better I don’t think and then we start creating wing log jams instead of PF log jams. We need a spot up shooter that spreads the floor and we need to really be focusing on our PG of the future.
I do not think that Iggy would fit that well in the Jazz system and he does have a very large contract. Well, so does Jefferson. I think that Burks at this time is a poor man Iggy and can develop greatly by getting playing time. In the summer league I saw two outstanding PG’s. But I do not think we could land either one. If I was the GM I would give Houston a call to see what kind of deal they would want to make. If the deal will help the Jazz and help clear cap space I would pull the trigger. If the Jazz do trade Jefferson or Millsap, what would you like to see in return for them. I have my own idea and have expressed that idea in a couple of places.