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Start over Bell/AK? Miles vs Hayward
Posted by: Andrew on March 10th, 2011
The author's views are entirely his or her own and may not reflect the views of the Utah Jazz.This is the statistics of when Miles starts vs when Hayward Starts, because I have heard people wanting Hayward to start instead of Miles when Bell or AK are out.
C.J. Miles: In 5 Starts this season (Left) vs From Bench 57 (Right)
Minutes: 180 36 Per Game – 1309 23 Per Game
FGM-A: 37-84 44% – 244-609 40%
3PM-A: 10-27 37% – 80-242 33%
FTM-A: 11-11 100% – 106-131 80%
Rebounds: 26 (22 Defensive 4 Offensive) 5.2 Per Game – 179 ( 140 Defensive 39 Offensive) 3.1 Per Game
Assists: 14 2.8 Per Game – 85 3.1 Per Game
Steals: 8 1.6 Per Game - 55 1.0 Per Game
Blocks: 3 .6 Per Game - 28 .5 Per Game
Points: 95 19 Per Game – 674 11.8 Per Game
Gordon Hayward in 12 Starts this Season vs From Bench 44 (Right):
Minutes: 267 22.2 Per Game – 488 11.1 Per Game
FGM-A: 24-48 50% – 50-119 42%
3PM-A: 5-12 42% - 8-24 33%
FTM-A: 14-20 70% – 28-37 76%
Rebounds: 30 (22 Defensive 8 Offensive) 2.5 Per Game – 68 (44 Defensive 24 Offensive) 1.5 Per Game
Assists: 14 1.2 Per Game – 31 1.5 Per Game
Steals: 8 .7 Per Game – 8 .2 Per Game
Blocks 2 .2 Per Game – 11 .2 Per Game
Points: 67 5.6 Per Game – 136 3.1 Per Game
They Both do better when starting and Miles’ Scoring is the highest Jump in his averages. Miles isn’t afraid to shoot the ball where as Hayward is. In 5 Starts Miles has scored 28 more Points than Hayward in 12 Starts. Assists, Steals, Blocks, and Points Miles out does Hayward in all of those categories whether it’s Starts or Bench.
Hayward has played 87 more minutes than CJ at the Start but the only Stat that he has more of is Rebounding (4 more). Granted that Hayward does shoot a better Percentage from the Field and the 3, but CJ shoots much more.
CJ has taken 36 more shots and 15 more 3’s in 87 less minutes.
Gordon Hayward is a good player and needs minutes, but starting him over CJ? give me a break. CJ impacts the game much more when he starts vs Hayward and vs when he comes off the bench. Haywards numbers are slightly up when starting, where has CJ has large increases when he starts.
Hayward is not demanding minutes with these numbers where as CJ is demanding more minutes. CJ should start over Bell with Hayward backing up AK.
Replies: 15
Views: 637
15 Responses
I don’t understand why this point can still be discussed.
Hayward made starts at the 2 when Bell was injured. CJ mainly started at the 3 for AK, like yesterday. They played against different teams, against different players. They started different number of times. They started few times. No way to compare. No statistical value. That being said:
“Miles isn’t afraid to shoot the ball where as Hayward is” … is maybe a point of comparison, but I don’t agree:
- Hayward shoots the ball within open looks and is aware of staying within the offense. It is exactly why I am hoping from a rookie in a complex offensive system.
- CJ has a tendency to shoot the ball too much while his more efficient game is to drive to the basket. Small forwards like him should first drive to make their defensor stepping back, so they have wider looks for shooting in the next offense. Once again, CJ is not a back-up for Bell.
Hayward is a rookie. CJ is in his 4th year in the NBA. Who needs minute ?
The problem with this post is that you are asking the wrong question. Neither player is a viable starting 2.
Consider that Bell played almost 45 minutes in the Raptor game. More than anybody else on the court. How could this be? Everybody knows he doesn’t score, right? Is Corbin crazy?
Well, Bell is basically the only true 2 guard on the team, and for that game was really the only option Utah had that could keep quick SGs in front of him. Gordon doesn’t have the quickness to keep up with these guys (although his length helps him) and CJ just isn’t very interested in playing defense. Believe it or not, Ronnie could have helped us quite a bit in this game. Having only 2 PG dressed really limited the options as far as playing one of them in relief of Bell, and I’ve never had a problem with Price’s hustle and effort on D.
Furthermore, only CJ and Gordon were available to play the 3, so even if they could play at the 2 we get ultra-thin at SF. Evans can’t do it right now, as much as I like him. We were really seeing how dependent the team is on AK and Milsap, and how bad this team needs guards. Right now Utah has 4 practically useless centers taking up space, counting the new guy and everyone who is hurt. C’mon Okur, get well.
As far as minutes go, they both are getting them. Gordon is going at about 20 MPG and CJ is around 26 for the last month and a half. That is plenty of time on the court to prove you belong there for the 4th quarter.
So I guess I didn’t answer your question, but that’s where I’m at on these two guys. As much flack as Bell gets, I really hope he can stay healthy.
“The problem with this post is that you are asking the wrong question. Neither player is a viable starting 2.”
All I have to say to that “Shockwave” is, WOW! Obviously you didn’t see the Boston game where Hayward held Allen (2 guard) to 2 points when he was guarding him.
Miles is more productive as a starter if he’s smart and aggressive, not chucking 3’s.
I liked what Corbin did at the end of yesterday’s game so I was thinking a lineup of Harris, Hayward, Miles, AK, and Jefferson would be nice to try out and bring in Milly to help with the scoring off the bench.
Does anyone else find it dumb to compare ‘Per Game’ stats when one player is playing 22 minutes and another is playing 36?
Here’s a task for you, statistics Andrew:
Compare CJ Miles’ per-minute stats of his rookie year versus Hayward’s per-minute stats.
I’d like to see Hayward start to get more experience.
This was supposed to be the year CJ finally came into his own, and it’s still not happening. He still has way too many 3-10 or 4-14 nights. I loved how he came out in the Raptors game however, driving to the hole for his first 6 attempts, and making 4 of them. Starting 4-6 on easier attempts definitely helped his confidence and rhythm down the stretch.
Honestly, I’d rather see either of them start at the 2 than Bell.
Cut Bell, start CJ, and bring in Hayward as the first sub if CJ’s hitting clunkers!
http://sloanshirts.spreadshirt.com/that-s-a-foul-A7191907/customize/color/4
Miles is further along in his development then Hayward, and in my opinion, should be our starting two guard. He just plays better as a starter. When he gets in with that second group, that doesn’t have much scoring punch, he feels obligated to take a bunch of shots. If he doesn’t, how will the team score? With the first unit, he seems to let the game come to him, and as a result, has better shot selection.
If I was coaching, and everyone was healthy, I would start a unit of Harris, Miles, Kirilenko, Millsap, and Jefferson. I think that starting five gives us the best opportunity to win RIGHT NOW. Everytime Hayward get a chance to play significant minutes, he just doesn’t show that much. He needs to be more aggressive, and not be afraid to make some mistakes. He’s just way too tentative for my tastes right now.
Comment on Hayward’s Defense*
I was listening to the game on the radio and David Locke said awesome things regarding Hayward’s defense on DeMar DeRozan…apparently he had 0 field goals made on 7 attempts while Hayward was guarding him.
@JC:
Heyward has good games from time to time, but IMO he did not have as big an effect on Allen as your stat would imply. Of course I watched that game. Allen was still getting open but missing during that time. He does miss sometimes. He also makes shots when he’s covered (ala the AK defensed play).
Gordon plays better D than CJ does, for sure, especially in transition. His length really helps him to close out when he makes the read quick enough. He could develop into a guy that can play that spot, particularly if he can learn some tricks from Raja to overcome his lack of quickness in comparison to 2s around the league. I like Gordon.
Again, look at Bell’s minutes. Do you think Corbin is just being held hostage by some unknown power of Raja Bell? No, the guy is the best option, like it or not.
Here is the real problem. Think about it, none of the 3 are at the present lvl to be starters. At least Bell has the exp. Bell and CJ are both inconsistant at best. Bell cause he is old, CJ for who knows why. But for CJ and in this stage of his game, he should be more consistant than he is. So, back up or gone is probably better than discussing starting.
Hayward. He has an up side. In his first season, he is consistant off the bench or starting. Though he needs to pull the trigger more often, he is developing. More time may be what he needs to gain the confidence that everyone says he lacks.
The comment of pulling Milsap off the bench putting Miles and Hayward in as starters is just plain nuts. I understand your looking to have some punch off the bech, but we will have that with Favors. We would lose so much putting milsap on the bench, his puch would probably be more of a jab.
I say, you try for a trade, or draft in some guys who can make an impact at the 2 and actually be starters by the end of next season. You make sure you get AK back, and find someone to back up there as well. We Need a player who can start 2 and another who can Back up at the 2 and 3. Can get that out of two players. If we can find that, both CJ and Hayward can come off the bench. Being the end of a contract yr for CJ, you would think he would have put forth more than he has this season. We could keep CJ as a backup, or we can shop for more consistancy.
Bottom line, are all 3 are backups, we need a starter. Hopefully in time Hayward will become that. Was hoping CJ would have this year. Maybe he is in the wrong position, maybe he will only be a back up wing. Dunno.
I think it is pretty clear that Miles has done better in the starting line up this year, Averaging over 17 a game going in to the raptors game.
Ty Corbin just does not wish to rock the boat; it’s that simple. And why would he, as an interim coach taking over for a legend? Besides, the team went out and got Bell to be our starting SG. When you’re an interim coach, you don’t !@#$% off your GM or ownership team, because they’re the ones who choose if you stay.
Yeah, we’d be way better off with Bell playing significantly fewer minutes. CJ is more effective as a 3 than a 2, since he can drive on a taller player more easily (and doesn’t have much post-up skill to try and use his size advantage on a shorter 2). This makes Hayward our best 2, since he’s not much of a driver anyway, more of a spot-up shooter who thrives on shooting over smaller players. His lateral movement is a bit poor, but he has clearly shown progress in the use of his length to make up for it. He’s already a better defender than Raja “please come in, no need for the door-”Bell at these points in their careers.
I have one reason for Ty to make a change. Since the Jazz started at 27-13, they are 7-18. That is a pretty good reason to make a change to me.
I think the biggest problem with Hayward is he is scared of his own shadow. If he can learn to take those shots when he is open rather than pass the ball he will be ok. CJ does not pass up the opportunity to take the shots. I agree that CJ for Bell as the starter would do wonders.
Shockwave I’m decidedly against Grammer and Spelling Nazi-isms, but as much as you post on here you really should know how to spell “Hayward” by now. I thought eventually you’d figure it out on your own; however at this point I got sick of seeing you say “Heyward” over and over so I felt compelled to address this to you
I still think the problem is that your trying to decide which backup should start. Maybe the change you guys are talking about is to get a starter for the SG position rather than trade tit for tat..